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MD-11 / FSX / EHAM ILS 27 incorrect route


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#1 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 11:40 AM

Hey guys,As a dutchman I like to fly from and to Schiphol Airport (EHAM) I very often get runway 27 assigned as my runway to land on. But there is a problem with the route towards it. Look at the screenshot I took to see what I mean. (I was standing on the runway itself, normaly I would just fly in of course :()http://i32.tinypic.com/28aou1i.jpgThe route is fine and correct untill I get to waypoint SPL (Schiphol) after that it just makes a mess out of it.I went to the SIDSTARS folder and located the EHAM file. It showed me this text at the approach for runway 27:APPROACH ILS27 FIX WPNB 2000 FIX EH639 2000 RNW 27 TRK 268 VECTORSTRANSITION RIVER FIX RIVER FIX SP30A AT OR BELOW 10000 SPEED 250 FIX D223O SPEED 220 FIX SPL AT OR ABOVE 7000TRANSITION SUGOL FIX SUGOL 10000 FIX SPL30 AT OR BELOW 10000 SPEED 250 FIX D293O SPEED 220 FIX SPL AT OR ABOVE 7000While when I look at the charts of ILS27 which are here F.Y.I. (I use the navigraph one btw) you can clearly see that after waypoint SPL I need to go direct to WP. Get on heading 141 for 1 minute and then turn left to WP again. So how do I fix this? Thanks for your help!Tiemen Bos

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#2 Cuddly1956

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:25 PM

The question is how does the plane fly the approach? According to the sidstar it flies to WPndb then to fix EH649 which is correct.You can't write the star to go from and then to the same waypoint. I don't think there is a way to enter a time into it either... you can put a heading or track in but you'd need a distance then turn left to intercept the radial.So you have either to add another waypoint or just fly it manually, just select the heading and time it then begin a left turn then a DIR TO EH649.Hope this explains it a bit and I hope someone else pops in to correct me if I'm wrong as I only know a little about this, it's just from what I've gleaned from reading up on it.The ils for runway 06 is written in the same way too.John Ellison
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#3 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:35 PM

The plane goes crazy when I fly the route on autopilot. Last time it just stopped following the route and went straight on. Of course fly it manual is an option but id like it to be correct and ready for when I need it. Thanks for your help!Does someone else know how to fix this?Tiemen,

#4 downscc

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 03:53 PM

I don't know why you couldn't fly the procedure turn (this is what it looks like) using HDG. The alternative is to edit the sidstar file.I add procedure turns to the procedures in my collection, the FMS needs to be fed one segment at a time since it does not do RF radius-to-fix segments so I us a algorithm that creates about seven pseudofixes to make the outbound and course reversal inbound to roll out on final approah course. By far the best method is the one used real world, which is to use HDG.

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#5 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 05:16 PM

By far the best method is the one used real world, which is to use HDG.

Do you mean telling the autopilot to follow heading 141 (While flying). Or do you mean adjusting the SIDSTAR file so it follows the heading 141 automaticly? The procedure turn on the approach for 36R looks like this: TURN RIGHT DIRECT FIX NVNB AT OR ABOVE 3000 FIX OVERFLY 43NM TURN RIGHT DIRECT FIX NVNB AT OR ABOVE 2000I copied that line into the 27 approach and changed NVNB to WPNB (Like the chart says) I did not change the FIX OVERFLY 43NM. When I loaded up and entered the approach info in the FMC I got the part after SPL right, So it went to WP. After that it wanted to go towards where the 43NM waypoint is in the approach for 36R and back towards WP to line up with the runway. On the chart of 36R I couldnt find a waypoint, NDB or VOR called like 43 or NM or that combination. Where does the 43NM come from? Its not 43 miles is it?Tiemen Bos

#6 downscc

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Posted 23 August 2009 - 06:24 PM

More likely 4.3 to something in this context.The fixes used in a procedure file are all defined in the FIXES section, usually the first section in a procedure file.

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#7 Cuddly1956

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:15 AM

43NM is a fix - FIX 43NM LATLON N 52 6.260209 E 4 51.174229It's listed in the sidstar.John Ellison
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#8 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 11:23 AM

43NM is a fix - FIX 43NM LATLON N 52 6.260209 E 4 51.174229It's listed in the sidstar.John Ellison

Yeah I was just looking into that and I found it like 3 minutes before you posted hehe. Can I create my own fix and put it in the SIDSTAR file? Was thinking of this way to get it: I will fly the approach and get to WPNB, then turn to HDG141 and fly that for 1 minute, then I pauze it, and see what co

#9 Cuddly1956

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 12:56 PM

Just a trial version but you could try this for ils27: -APPROACH ILS27 OVERFLY FIX WP 3000 SPEED 180 TRK 141 UNTIL 003 FROM FIX WP TURN LEFT INTERCEPT RADIAL 268 FROM BUB FIX WP 2000 FIX EH639 RNW 27 TRK 268 VECTORSJust make a backup of the original and copy paste into the approach for ils27 and try it....As I say it might not work but worth a try..... If it does or not, let me know as I'll be able to adapt it for others at EHAM at least (I'm no expert in this, Dan is much more knowledgeable).Thinking about this probably the extra part should be added to the Transitions as it will mess up the approach... grrr.Just a thought you could try asking in Terry's forum too. - http://forums1.avsim...p?showforum=230John Ellison
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#10 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 01:49 PM

I treid that John but no luck. It doesnt even show the approaches in the FMC anymore. Tried a number of different lines in the approach for 27 and all had the same result.Tiemen,

#11 Cuddly1956

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 02:18 PM

Cheers for trying anyway.The approach only covers the route to the runway and beyond.It's a shame that the Transition ends up the wrong side of the approach - It really messes the routing up.Your way seems the way to go - adding fixes after the WPndb but on the Transition side of things, don't mess with the approach.Just a shame you can't add at fix TRK xxx for 1min turn left to same fix.John Ellison
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#12 downscc

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 02:25 PM

APPROACH ILS27 OVERFLY FIX WP 3000 SPEED 180 TRK 141 UNTIL 003 FROM FIX WP TURN LEFT INTERCEPT RADIAL 268 FROM BUB FIX WP 2000 FIX EH639 RNW 27 TRK 268 VECTORS

Change OVERFLY FIX WP to FIX OVERFLY WP. The turn left command only works turning left to a fix, such as TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX aaaaa, so now you are going to figure out how far away to put aaaaa such that it is a pretty turn, right? Honest, it is easier to just build a 1.8 nm radius arc around a point and then know where to put the intercept point. See examples of procedure turns in my sidstar collection, I believe KABQ has published ones and that is the first file.

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#13 Inactive Member_Tiemen_***

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 02:29 PM

I am one step further, added this:FIX OVERFLY WPNB AT OR ABOVE 3000 HDG 141 INTERCEPT RADIAL 268 TO FIX WPNBAnd now 27 approach looks like this:APPROACH ILS27 FIX WPNB 2000 FIX EH639 2000 RNW 27 TRK 268 VECTORSTRANSITION RIVER FIX RIVER FIX SP30A AT OR BELOW 10000 SPEED 250 FIX D223O SPEED 220 FIX SPL AT OR ABOVE 7000 FIX OVERFLY WPNB AT OR ABOVE 3000 HDG 141 INTERCEPT RADIAL 268 TO FIX WPNBTRANSITION SUGOL FIX SUGOL 10000 FIX SPL30 AT OR BELOW 10000 SPEED 250 FIX D293O SPEED 220 FIX SPL AT OR ABOVE 7000 FIX OVERFLY WPNB AT OR ABOVE 3000 HDG 141 INTERCEPT RADIAL 268 TO FIX WPNBNow the approach list showed up in the FMC. The part from SPL to WPNB is correct and the part from WPNB to the runway is correct now. The only thing that is missing is the turn between WPNB and ... WPNB :( I just need to have the fly heading 141 for 1 minute (Or a number of miles) and then turn to WPNB

#14 Cuddly1956

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 03:27 PM

Change OVERFLY FIX WP to FIX OVERFLY WP. The turn left command only works turning left to a fix, such as TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX aaaaa, so now you are going to figure out how far away to put aaaaa such that it is a pretty turn, right? Honest, it is easier to just build a 1.8 nm radius arc around a point and then know where to put the intercept point. See examples of procedure turns in my sidstar collection, I believe KABQ has published ones and that is the first file.

AHAAAA!!! couldn't Tiemen use TURN LEFT DIRECT FIX PAM in this case? as PAM is very close to the approach point. (See first post plate link)You know I edited that from FIX OVERFLY WP to OVERFLY FIX WP lol as I thought it didn't look right lol.John Ellison
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#15 downscc

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 03:35 PM

I just need to have the fly heading 141 for 1 minute (Or a number of miles) and then turn to WPNB

You can use 3.33 nm/min (GS 200 kts) or 3 nm/min (GS 180 kts) as a rule of thumb for segment lengths. The fly-for-one-minute instruction is not a hard fast rule, but allows ample room to make the course reversal turn while still keeping you within protected airspace. Most of these procedures have a 10 nm boundary that you should stay within (usually measured from the FAF).

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