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AI Aircraft landing short of the runway


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21 replies to this topic

#1 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:38 PM

Does anyone know a fix for the occasional problem of AI aircraft landing short of the runway? I just watched a British Airways 737 do a perfect water landing about 5000 feet short of the LGTS runway and then, after being handed over to ground, taxi across the water to the gate! :( I have noticed it with the FlyTampa KSEA occasionally as well.

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#2 onurksn

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:55 PM

I've seen it happen occasionnally with WOAI aircraft trying to catch up on their schedules, it doesn't always happen though. :(

#3 cbrown

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 12:59 PM

Maybe the Afcad doesn't match the scenery and needs to be altered if you can't find one made for that scenery.Colin B

#4 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 01:33 PM

Maybe the Afcad doesn't match the scenery and needs to be altered if you can't find one made for that scenery.Colin B

Hi ColinThat was my first thought too but in both cases GAP LGTS and FlyTampa KSEA the AFCADs were supplied with the scenery and work perfectly. But to be sure I just checked both of them using AFX and everything is an exact match.The comment above about WOAI might be the answer as almost all my airline AI is from them.

#5 WingZ

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:59 PM

Yes you have to imagine there is something amiss with some WOAI models?I have seen this recently at EDDF too.A/C was a BA A319 IIR

#6 Opa

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 08:08 PM

If you really believe there is a possible issue with WOAI models, I would suggest posting in the WOAI forums. If there is an issue, they need to know so it can be addressed.http://www.world-of-...Forum/index.phpYou do have to register (free and easy) to see all of the forums and be able to post.Be sure you cite the model(s) in question and where you observed this behavior.

#7 nohjnosnih

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 03:02 AM

If the problem can be attributed to aircraft rather than specific airports, there are some revised FDEs for most AI aircraft available from Jan Martin athttp://janswebsites....tsim/index.htmlJohn

#8 Timbo727

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 10:43 AM

Hi All,This has happened on a few occassions with my old Traffic program on FS9, which was Just Flight's 'Traffic'. It as not happened recently with my WOAI, but at the time I believe I put it down to a conflicting AFCAD file and too much traffic on the go at any one time.

#9 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 04:37 PM

I don't want anyone to think I'm convinced it is a WOAI model problem. As the only time I've seen it happen has involved airline AI and almost all my airline AI is from WOAI I thought the explanation posted above was worth checking out. But I doubt it is anything to do with the actual models as WOAI use models from lots of different sources, especially Aardvark and I'd swear by their reliability any day. Now that I read that it has happened with Just Flight's Traffic program, it's possible that it involves the issue of scheduling as suggested above. I've only observed it at KSEA and LGTS but I think that's probably coincidental - it sounds like it happens elsewhere as well.When I get some time I'll tinker around with some customized schedules and see if I can make it happen. I'll post any results I get. Any other ideas guys?

#10 Chuck_B

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:43 PM

I, for one would be very interested to hear what you may (or may not) find.

#11 ShaneG

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 05:48 PM

I get this with problem with my AI also, and I use nothing but PAI and MAIW.It happens mostly at runways that are near, or end at water. The biggest issues for me happen at TNCM, KLAX, KSEA, and occasionally Elmendorf with the F-15's.It usually occurs most during bad weather, but I've seen it on a clear day as well.Traffic slider is at 90%.Hope this helps in some way. :)

#12 GrenoZee

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 09:07 AM

I remember reading some time ago that something very similar can happen while using ATC add-ons like AISmooth.The deal is that these programs in fact slew aircraft when they prepare the landing queue instead of having ATC giving them proper instructions. This can under some circumstances cause the ATC code to loose the aircraft completely resulting in the aircraft proceeding as if no slew occurred... (I'm really not sure anymore about the details, some of this info might be straight incorrect but the general idea is right)Try disabling AISmooth, Radar Contact or whatever ATC add-on you have and see if you still get this behavior.

#13 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 09:54 AM

Good information - thanks. I do occasionally use AI Smooth but I don't think I was using it when this happened at the GAP LGTS as there's not that much traffic there and I usually only enable it when I'm going somewhere really busy. But that definitely includes KSEA where sometimes the approach path looks like a scene from a war movie with so many aircraft coming in at the same time! :( And that's where I've seen this happen most often, so I will experiment and see if using/not using AI smooth makes a difference.

#14 scott967

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 06:03 PM

It's often a good idea to set up a test traffic file that only uses default aircraft. I use the Baron, B737 or A321, and B747. Take note of the approach being used by the problem AI and set up conditions at the airport so that approach is given by ATC and then observe the test traffic. It can help to have the sdk traffic toolbox utilities installed in particular the traffic map shows you what the AI are trying to do/ where they actually are. That will tell you if the AFD are acceptable for AI. If the default aircraft work, then it is a question of the FDE of the particular AI aircraft. Many have been tweaked to get them landing, stopped, and off the runway as quickly as possible to avoid traffic jams and this can be a source of problems if the tweaks are too aggressive. If the defaults are having problems what I have seen is it's because of trying to fine tune an approach to avoid long finals that have terrain issues, or more rarely VFR having problems with the traffic pattern. scott s..

#15 f14driver

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 01:52 PM

how long into the sim did this happen ( in time) ?Remember that the AI engine needs 15 minutes to settle down after the initial start of the flight so you can encounter some strange effects then.

#16 Clutch Cargo

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:13 PM

From what I have read, the issue is not the airports or AFCADS but the AI aircraft FDE. Several of the design forums have threads regarding this. AI Guru, Jim Vile had some interesting comments on the subject and I quote: "A word about AI Plane modelers FDE'sI am only one person (for the last 5 years) trying to show AI plane modeler's that in FS9 and FSX there are curves and circle to land approaches built into the default approach code.Microsoft made their default planes NOT ONLY flyable but AI plane behavior also. A FS9/FSX flyable plane like the B747-400 can turn and align with a runway very well when used as a AI plane. A 3rd party AI Plane has very poor FDE's since it can only land on a straight final approach.Look at how many AI Planes have trouble shooting my curved Kai Tak approach and then land on the side of the runway. I have been telling modler's that AI Planes MUST be able to turn on short final as per FS9 and FSX. Modeler's just don't get it!!!Modler's and FDE design groups brag about how well their planes look on approach and flair for landing but if you test their planes at PHNL using the default FS9/FSX LDA to rwy 26L which is a curved approach their same AI Plane is junk.I say that because for 5 years I have ask them to give us AI Planes with proper wingspans/model radius (for parking), use the correct empty weights (for runway selection), use the 13 .cfg values to make a AI Plane behave the same as a default Microsoft plane, stop the sink rate in a turn when gear is coming down (turn to final), and all this continues to fall on deaf ears. Jan Martin is updating all his FDE's to look more like a real plane but I do not know if he is testing the FDE's as per what FS9/FSX requires (see below).Test your curved approach with a Microsoft default plane of the same size that will use the airport. If the default B737-800 can turn and align then 3rd party AI Planes of same size should be able to do it also. Many can't so I have to push the turn to final back a little bit for the crappy AI planes FDE's.There is another small problem. All of the FSX Microsoft planes are designed with flying characteristics which uses a updated different type aircraft.air file and companion aircraft.cfg file. ALL 3rd party Freeware AI Planes being uploaded today are designed using FS9 .air and .cfg files. There is no such thing has a 3rd Party Freeware FSX AI Plane and we import these FS9 AI planes into FSX.PAI did not have the best looking textures and were not Frame rate friendly but they had the best FDE's which the behavior is more toward a FS9 default plane. Arrdvark have the worst FDE's and all the rest fall in between. Most Ardvarks cannot land/roll out very well unless a ILS approach code exist. Thank goodness for a ILS approach code which can make any AI Plane look good on the approach and landing. Roll out is another story.If a 3rd party AI Plane is as good as a default FS9/FSX Plane it must1. Fly a default ILS approach where the approach code controls the atitude of the AI Plane and target point on the runway for touchdown.2. Fly a non ILS approach such as the RWY 09 at TNCM (visual app)3. Fly the PHNL LDA 26L approach when airport is IMC4. Fly the PADU Circle to land approach for either end of rwy 12/30The default FS9/FSX planes have no trouble with these default approaches. If the 3rd party AI Plane can fly them as well as the default MS planes then I will say that impresses me. "Hope that sheds some light on the issue.Clutch

#17 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 06:42 PM

As the old movies used to say "The plot thickens!" (Or something to that effect..) :( This is apparently a much more complicated issue than I thought. I still plan to do my promised "experiment" when I've got some spare time - I will make sure I use default AI as a baseline and if I cannot get the problem to happen with scheduling, will then mix in some 3rd party traffic to see if that is the problem. I will also make sure I observe that 15 minute "window" to ensure the AI has sorted itself out. (Truly can't remember how far into the flights the problem has occurred at).. Clutch, I really appreciate all your excellent information and the trouble you have taken in explaining it all to someone like myself who, though a real-world pilot, is an absolute novice when it comes to the programming aspect of FS. But I have to challenge the use of the word "junk" in relation to Aardvark AI aircraft. I can't comment on their FDE and I readily bow to your obvious knowledge and expertise on that issue, but IMHO Aardvark deserve nothing but praise for their efforts over the years to give us all outstanding AI aircraft that are great to look at, give excellent frame rates and have really set the standard in many ways for others to follow in terms of their visual realism. I just needed to say that I am uncomfortable with the word "junk" in regard to their many contributions to the hobby. But if their FDE is causing problems, it will be great if we can come up with a fix. BTW, when you referred to Kai Tak I assume you mean the 9D version? If so, I can attest to the fact that I have done a lot of "plane spotting" there as it is such a pleasure to watch AI land at that awesome scenery, and I've never seen any problems of the kind I reported here when starting this thread. And the vast majority of my AI are WOA which in turn are mostly AIA. As I said at the beginning, this problem seems to be a complex one and maybe the issues are multiple ones...Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread and I'll try to make my own contribution when I have some time to tinker with it.

#18 Clutch Cargo

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 10:32 AM

hey kiwiflyer45,Glad that was helpful but again, that was a quote I read, those are not my own words. I would never be so harsh (at least in a forum) to call someone's modeling "junk". I've uploaded a lot of add-ons over the years and that would come right back and bite me in the butt, ha! Believe me, I am no expert on AI performance but a student like yourself. I did pick up a lot when designing 9Dragons - one can only do so much when designing an airport to accommodate AI performance, especially if one has a tricky approach like Kai Tak.Jim was probably referring to a version of Kai Tak he created - not 9Dragons but the principal is the same. To land properly AI aircraft must be given the same respect as a regular designed aircraft in order to perform up to standards. But I admit, I do like plane spotting at 9D too as the aircraft don't land perfectly every time. That's part of the fun.Clutch

#19 kiwiflyer45

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 11:59 AM

hey kiwiflyer45,Glad that was helpful but again, that was a quote I read, those are not my own words. I would never be so harsh (at least in a forum) to call someone's modeling "junk". I've uploaded a lot of add-ons over the years and that would come right back and bite me in the butt, ha! Believe me, I am no expert on AI performance but a student like yourself. I did pick up a lot when designing 9Dragons - one can only do so much when designing an airport to accommodate AI performance, especially if one has a tricky approach like Kai Tak.Jim was probably referring to a version of Kai Tak he created - not 9Dragons but the principal is the same. To land properly AI aircraft must be given the same respect as a regular designed aircraft in order to perform up to standards. But I admit, I do like plane spotting at 9D too as the aircraft don't land perfectly every time. That's part of the fun.Clutch

Hi ClutchThanks for the reply. After I posted my response I re-read what you had said and realized that it was Jim who used the word "junk" and not you. I should have gone back and edited what I'd written. Sorry about that. I want you to know that I think 9Dragons is an astonishing product. Everything about it is spectacular. One of my favorite saved flights uses David Maltby's DH Comet in BOAC colours at the 9D VHHX and whenever I am demonstrating FS to someone who hasn't seen it before, I invariably pick that flight as my "demo" as it is so spectacular yet has perfect frame rates. So very well done mate and thank you for your wonderful work.

#20 ghulley

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:42 PM

I noticed this at KSFO as well, planes skimming across the water before 'landing' on the runway. I was using aiseparation at the time. A switch to aismooth fixed the problem. It could be that when it gets super-busy some planes in aiseparation get slewed backwards for separation and continue on the glideslope as if they weren't slewed.

#21 altstiff

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 10:21 AM

And to add to the mess, I get this problem at times and I use AI Smooth. So there you go....

#22 tgibson

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:14 PM

Hi,I have seen this problem occasionally with all AI I have tried (and all FD). I think it is just an FS bug that happens once in a while. Almost all of my AI do fine on the curved approaches, so it's not related to that.





   
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