Flight Manuals Released! 05DEC10

[Chock 17,769]

Whilst Anthony is not exactly putting it very subtly and there is certainly no need for his fruity language, his point is in fact somewhat valid. To give you a related real world example which will help to illustrate what he is driving at, you cannot legally place goods in a shop in the UK with a faux 'original price' sticker and a 'reduced price' sticker plonked over the pseudo 'original price' unless the goods have been continuously on display at the higher price for thirty consecutive days. This is a law designed to prevent faked discounts from being used as a marketing ploy to coerce people into buying in a rush before the 'discount offer' ends. This was the point he was making.Of course those shopping laws do not apply to these manuals, nevertheless, if they have only ever been available at the supposedly 'discounted price', then it technically cannot be a discount, because they were never on sale prior to that at the higher price, thus it is more in the nature of an introductory offer than a discount. semantics maybe, but that's what he was getting at. Still, I suspect it's mostly just annoyance that the manuals aren't thirty quid for the lot, which of course they're never going to be. PMDG can charge what they like, that's just the way it is, and they have to cover costs.With regard to the comment made earlier about the 400 being similar to the NG and thus not needing a very different set of manuals, whilst the NGs and the Classics may look very similar (and Boeing do try and make newer models sort of handle the same to ease training transitions), operationally they are fairly different in a lot of ways. Here's a few differences:NG has...Faster cruise speedHigher ceilinglower take off and landing speedshigher MTOWlower fuel burn (roughly 6 percent better)larger wing areasmaller main tanks (owing to the undercarriage change, which actually makes the NG 4 feet taller at the tail)larger centre tankmore fuel capacitybigger aileronsdifferent flaps and slatsmore spoilersnose gear repositioned slightlymain gear is longerSeveral of those things could land you in trouble if you aren't aware of them, and one or two of them could really drop you in the crap.To give you an example of how that can happen, one of the most notorious B737 crashes in the UK was when a British Midland 737--400 had a fairly minor engine problem, the crew were used to flying original 200 series 737s, but this one was one of the then brand-new Classics back in 1989, which the crew mistakenly assumed was 'not too different' to the Original 200 Series ones they were used to. Upon noticing an engine giving off the smell of burning, the pilot mistakenly assumed he knew which engine it was that had the problem because he 'knew' that the way the air conditioning pipes were laid out in a 737, the smell had to be coming from the engine on one side. Unfortunately, what he didn't realise was that Boeing had redesigned the 737 Classic's vent layouts which meant that was no longer true and the smell could be coming from either engine. He was further confused by the unfamiliar changes to the engine gauges. As a result, he mistakenly shut down the 'good' engine thinking he was making a sensible precautionary move (which would have been true on a 200). BM's maintenance guys on the ground, who he was in touch with, stupidly advised him to fly the aircraft all the way to their maintenance facility to save them some trouble of picking the aircraft up from a diversion airfield (passing over several airports where they could have landed safely), and he was in the process of going to the maintenance base, flying on one engine which of course was the one that he'd got the burning smell from originally when things went awry. Of course the engine gave up and that was just as he was trying to land, he tried to stretch the glide but couldn't make it and came down on a motorway at Kegworth, killing 47 people and injuring pretty much everyone else on board:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disasterIf only he and those maintenance guys would have had a look at the systems manuals for their new 737 eh? Don't seem quite so pricey now do they?Al

[Tabs 2,790]

Anthony,You're breaking the forum rules by posting completely false things and arguing about pricing - both of which are specific rules you agree to in order to post here. If you insist on breaking them, then yes, you'll be banned - I don't care what you've purchased if you do that. (PM me your order id's so I can verify that by the way - your name as it's signed to your posts doesn't even appear in our customer database) You have 9 total posts on Avsim, your name doesn't show up in the database and yet you think I "know very well" who you are?The number of people who've purchased these manuals already might beg to differ with your assessment of our customer base too. And what should it matter if there's people here who can't afford a certain product? I can't afford a lot of things I'd like either - that's life. There's not some magical way to make these manuals less expensive - professional products cost money.No more discussions on pricing or this stuff please - anything further will be deleted.

[stevenp 1]

To say that 'real pilots' need to read the manuals weeks before they get in the seat is arrogance - I have MD11 manuals and they are far too complex and therefore next to useless for all but the very serious simmers out there. Anthony Vincent

This is one of the most arrogant things I have ever read. You simply don't understand or comprehend. Have you even gone to college? I am an electrical engineering student and a student private pilot and what you said is quite stupid. I.e. if you think that people don't read and don't study things that are 800 pages long look again. Every 3 months I go through 4 800 page books of engineering, and I need to know them cold because I can't go out and just solve a bunch of problems plus it all builds on each other. Same applies to pilots. I will NOT get in a plane unless these pilots know what they are doing and this is the same for me. I do not trust myself to fly an airplane unless I know everything. And believe me...pilots need to know everything. They get a biyearly check-ride that encompasses a 4-6 hour oral exam and every question needs to be right. Then they fly a simulator and need to know what to do in every single simulation thrown at them. I have heard so many horror stories of this that it really weeds out the careless ones. Even private pilots go through this oral exam and then they need to go through a flight with the examiner. Do your research.

[Guest Tamadeez]

I cannot believe people. Not me being sensitive but just needing to destroy peoples past and future posts on the manuals. There 100% like the real thing :(. Physically and content based wise . Don't bring pricing into this as we are already getting them dirt cheap. And finally people don't realize that we have just stepped into a new realm of possibilities, with average people now able to grasp these manuals and have an understanding almost on par as a NG 737 pilot and future PMDG releases. Can we ask for more? No.

[Chock 17,769]

we are already getting them dirt cheap.

I can absolutely confirm this is true for anyone who needs convincing, and here's why: I've actually produced artwork for Airbus manuals (that'd the real ones that are in the cockpit of the actual A320, A321 and A330 aeroplanes, or in the possession of their pilots), and if you wanted one of those (which incidentally you can't have unless you are with the airline since they are numbered and 'issued'), you'd be looking at a damn site more than PMDG are charging. I know how much the airlines got charged for them (since it was me and the printing company who sent them the bill LOL) and it sure as hell wasn't a couple of hundred quid, because unlike your average paperback novel, these things absolutely dare not have a mistake in them, so the production and proofing process is just about the most long-winded and meticulous thing you can ever imagine, which adds a lot to the cost. Trust me, if they're even remotely close to the cost of the Airbus ones, then these PMDG ones are a bargain.So anyway, when I get paid I'll be having some of this PMDG manual action before Boeing decide they made a mistake when all the airlines are buying these instead of ones off Boeing LOLAl

[Roadburner426 19]

I would also like to say that pilots do not just get to jump in birds without first going through ground schooling, and this is coming from the military side. I work at a FRS (Fleet Replacement Squadron). All of our incoming students from Pensacola go through a ground course with NATOPS studying/tests, and ground familiarization where we take them on top of the aircraft long before they ever set foot in for a flight. Even then they are taken on introductory flights where they are shown manuevers, techniques, etc before they are ever fully handed the controls. I am unsure of the civilian process, but I know our pilots spend almost 2 years (between being taught how to fly in Pensacola, and coming to us for aircraft specific)doing all of their training before they even hit the fleet. Even then they still go on to their actual squadron and continue to get training as H2P's (basically a FO), and undergo rigorous testing/boards/flight hour requirements to become HAC's (PIC).. Training is a huge part of an aircrew environment. Which is why I know we have monthly minimum hours that all pilots must maintain (VFR, IFR, NVG, ship landings, etc) to stay current in all of their quals otherwise they drop dead and must requalify with a current HAC. I imagine it is the same at the airlines, but maybe not as extreme. That excludes all of the changes you may get to the NATOPS or other aircrew related pubs regarding procedures and such that you must retrain on. I suppose it is beating a dead horse though. I will admit I don't know squat about commercial aviation, but the publications seem to be set up in an easy to understand manner. The Aircraft Systems book for the MD-11 I think does a a great job spelling out all of the systems of the aircraft. I am sorry you feel the way you do though. I honestly believe PMDG definately goes above and beyond what most add-on companies do to ensure customer satisfaction with their products. Especially with the level of interaction they provide here on the forums. You never see dev's answering questions on a daily basis anywhere else that I have seen. While they may not answer you directly I am sure they read all of the posts, and at least take note of anything that is important to pass on to whoever in their chain of command.

[damocles 1]

Thanks Alan for the clarification on the difference between the 400 series and the NG's....interesting reading!.......I've just done something, now I have $390 less in my account. Oooops.Weeeeellllllll, it is Christmas, nearlyChris farrell

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Gents-Don't let this Anthony fellow get under your skin. The best way to deal with mal-contents is to ignore them. Nothing bugs a self centered narcissist more than simply being ignored...(Trust me... we've dealt with this at PMDG. :( )A few folks have expressed disappointment at the high price level- and we certainly understand. These are not inexpensive to license, manufacture or ship. At the end of the day we are interested in offering options for folks who are interested in them. That is what PMDG is about.I can confirm for anyone concerned, that the Flight Crew Operating Manuals Vol 1 & Vol 2, plus the Flight Crew Training Manual will be included with the product in PDF format. We are still working out details on the QRH availability. I think it is likely that the only change you all will see is that we do not make these documents available as a free download from our website. This is being dictated by the people who own the manuals- and as such we shall comply- even if it isn't our first choice.I should get a few moments free a bit later to toss up a comparison page to show you the difference between the color and b/w QRH options... One vs. the other does not change the effectiveness of the document at all- but we wanted to offer it just because some folks might want it.Oh- and just to be clear: We have not increased our own profit on the QRH based on whether you take the color or b/w. To put it another way, we are offering the color option at OUR COST... Let's see... What else was there... Oh- yes: "PMDG doesn't know their customers." Well... judging by the size of the FedEx truck that will be needed to pick up the first day's shipments on Tuesday, apparently we do.To all of you who have already picked up a set of manuals- thank you. We are confident that you will get many many years of good use out of them.

[TMoney10583 1]

For those who don't know, PMDG's page on facebook has a bunch of close up pictures of these manuals if anyone wants to go over and take a look.

[Guest Cag40Navy]

I want to thank you PMDG for releasing such awesome manuals! As for me purchasing my set, i will have to wait just a bit but i will buy the Chief set soon! Again PMDG, thank you very much for your efforts in everything.Just a really dumb question, do the manuals cover all the variants?(ie: 600,700,800,900) ( I know, dumb question, but i am just wondering.)

[Efussander 0]

Let's see... What else was there... Oh- yes: "PMDG doesn't know their customers." Well... judging by the size of the FedEx truck that will be needed to pick up the first day's shipments on Tuesday, apparently we do.To all of you who have already picked up a set of manuals- thank you. We are confident that you will get many many years of good use out of them.

PMDG,I am getting ready to order my Captain's Manual Set. You can add one more excited customer to your list of manual orders!Hurah! I can't wait!EDIT: Order Complete. 737 Manuals to be delivered in 2-3 days!!!

[Danielsen 14]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Randazzo wrote somewhere else on these forums that PMDG is still negotiating with Boeing about digitalizing the manuals. However with manuals worth over $300 I hardly believe they will come with the NGX.

I can confirm for anyone concerned, that the Flight Crew Operating Manuals Vol 1 & Vol 2, plus the Flight Crew Training Manual will be included with the product in PDF format. We are still working out details on the QRH availability.

I stand corrected sir! However I have one question. Would you think this will have an impact on the prize on the NGX (without discussing the prize range of course). I mean, I would rather not like to spend money on them in pdf with the NGX since I've already purchased the Chief Pilot set.But great news nonetheless

[Efussander 0]

For those who don't know, PMDG's page on facebook has a bunch of close up pictures of these manuals if anyone wants to go over and take a look.

+1Nice Pics!

[Brett Nicholls 0]

Hi PMDG. Regarding the manuals what would you consider to be the first to buy to get you going. Please remember a lot of us are on a budget. Brett Nicholls

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Thomas-All costs in this endeavor, from the coffee that was purchased the morning of the photoshoot, to the licensing fees paid to Boeing, to the salary and commissions of PMDG employees and contractors factor into the final price. To say that it doesn't just wouldn't be honest...As for whether the cost of this licensing will raise the price of the NGX: It is amortized over many users and is significantly smaller than many other costs. I don't even think you could feed a parking meter for 15 minutes with what this will cost per unit...I hope folks won't worry too much about pricing on the NGX. It will be reasonably in line with existing market forces.(Translation: We haven't set the price yet- but we know roughly where it will be- and you won't be disturbed by it...)

Hi PMDG. Regarding the manuals what would you consider to be the first to buy to get you going. Please remember a lot of us are on a budget. Brett Nicholls

Brett-It depends upon your goals. If you want to learn about the 737 and all of it's systems, then purchase the Flight Crew Operating Manual (FCOM).If you would like to learn how the airplane should be flown, then purchase the Flight Crew Training Manual. (FCTM)Hope that helps you make a decision!