142 replies to this topic

[Ian McPhail]

No, not naive, just people with eyes wide open who assess a situation and make a choice that suits there interests and their pockets.  After all I have no idea what you spend your discretionary funds on so I can't judge whether you are completely sophisticated in the choices that you make.  For me it is my choice to spend up to $120, and if it falls in a heap, my expenditure has been manageable, enjoyable and no great loss.  My choice - rational for me.

[simmerhead]

Tor, on 09 February 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Hmmm...Pay $10 a month for being a P3D "Beta Tester"?You all know that this is actually all that you are?Simmers are nice people, but utterly naive...

$10 = Pocket change...

[Barnstormer1]

simmerhead, on 10 February 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

$10 = Pocket change...

Perhaps for you it is. Over 6 yrs thats $720.00 That does not represent a majority when you have 8 mouths to feed. Thats alot of food on the table, book rentals, tanks of gas, utility bills paid, college tutition.........For a 1%, pocket change!

Edited by Barnstormer1, 10 February 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Kosta]

Agree quite much. For me 7€ is not pocket change too. It's not much, that I'll agree, but it's 7€ too much for testing... the fact is that P3D is currently in the development stage, with bugs. Not only the ones caused externally, but also internally.

[Ian McPhail]

Friends we all have to make choices.  Mine is this.  I will pay the $10 a month for one year only, or until v2.0 comes out.  Then I will assess the situation again, and decide whether I buy a longer time period, or buy it outright.At various times of our lives we have different commitments and priorities.  I honour that.  So it is entirely up to you to do what you think best in your own circumstances.  Kosta is correct, P3D has many bugs including the crash on exit and the automatic restart which I find increasingly irritating - therefore I will bide my time.  But this is all my programme and suits me, you must do as you thnk best.Also my FSX is running superbly, on its own HDD and with full seasonality and overall better scenery UTX, GEX and FTX, I continue to fly FSX for hard core simming tasks and great countryside.  P3D allows me to go back to the early days of FSX and test and experiment - help keeps the brain alive.Now freemium FLIGHT is on the way.  It all seems wrong to me, but I am willing to bet with MS canny marketing it might just surprise us, but the mini-transactions make me think I may be spending more per month than I do on P3D.Barnstormer, you are on a tight budget so forget P3D, enjoy what you have and in a crowded house, enjoy your escape into FSX.  And Kosta I wish I could afford a rig like yours.  Way beyond my pocket.

[Ian McPhail]

So let's try this:FSX is our simulator of choice because we have sweated for 5 years to make it work. From day one it was a huge but under-developed step-up.   And believe me, Mr MS it is we consumers who have hung in, and spent thousands of dollars each, to keep your product alive.  While a few brilliant computer types in various forums did the hard yards to allow us to set up our computers and games adequatelyNew hardware has been the key for this CPU bound game, and brilliant add-on designers have now created highly sophisticated scenery and aircraft that run as independently as possible from the base FSX engine, but in the end are still reliant on this 32bit, barely threaded, memory intensive game with the same inherent limitations we have faced from the release of the first and last SP. I would, and I hope will go up to the Ivybridge chips when they are affordable but for the time being FSX runs pretty well for me, but believe me there are very few sliders all the way to the right.Is it possible to persuade MS to incorporate the P3D upgrades to the basic code into the FSX product - and leave out unnnecessary bits (to simmers)  like bathymetry.  Yes it would cost, but it would mean that MS/LM could continue to sell FSX at full price while marketing FLIGHT as a simple game-playing option to the less committed but some of whom would be expected to migrate to the new shiny smooth running blaster of a sim, naturall the product would be for entertainment, and LM would continue with improving their commercial simulation - free of the constraints of a boisterous and noisy flight simulation community. And free of the EULA threats and warnings running around the community at the moment.  Fanboys and fanatics for particular products could now stop being bush lawyers and peace would reign, at least for a few days.Win-win, too easy!  That'll be the reason for it being too hard.

[Tor]

Whatever, it´s your money..But I guarantee that you´ll be discarded by LM when they don´t need your +25 years Sim user knowledge anymore, and then the much debated EULA will be enforced to the letter!

[Mike_CFII_MEL]

Hi,The flight sim community has been abandoned/discarded (as you say) time and time again, just like what Microsoft did to us when they abandoned an incomplete / bug filled FSX, and yet again with MS flight. I will ride the P3D wave just as long as I can, just as I rode the FS franchise since the days of Bruce Artwick. I am under no delusions that I'll have P3D forever (or any other flight sim platform), I know full well that this sim could be here today and gone tomorrow. Then again, I may be the one to dump P3D if and/or when my needs change. Until then, $10.00 a month is more than reasonable given my financial situation and P3D's ability to give me hours of studder free enjoyment.For those that are unable to spend $10.00 a month on P3D, there are other platform options available to you.

Tor, on 11 February 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Whatever, it´s your money..But I guarantee that you´ll be discarded by LM when they don´t need your +25 years Sim user knowledge anymore, and then the much debated EULA will be enforced to the letter!

Edited by Mike_CFII_MEL, 11 February 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Ian McPhail]

Mike: +1Like you have been spending money on flight sims since the Artwig original.  Plus Jane's Fighting aircraft (what a great sim) and many others.  Then with all the MS variants through to FSX.  I count the prior versions as money well-spent but money gone.  In each case I gave all of my bought add-ons and the root game to others and felt great for having done so.  Money wasted?  Money well-spent? Who cares.I will buy FLIGHT as well and give it a run.  Who knows?  It may have more potential than I think at the moment. If it doesn't so that was my choice!  And if the doomsayers are right and P3D  bombs out, then so be it.  My risk again.If MS and LM could come to a commercial arrangement to have a merge into an entertainment product then they would have a huge winner - and somewhere for the percentage who get hooked on FLIGHTand flight simming to move to, and we addicts to stay with - rather than have them and us shift to another platform.  Both publishers and developers could get a small but steady cash-flow from this source for ever, or as long as it kept being updated.  Web-delivery of course shoves half of the distrubition costs onto the user so that's smart too.

[Ian McPhail]

Let me add, the killer has really been the updates to the basic Windows operating system.  How many times have you dredged through the sales tables at Games stores, discover a cheap title then find it is so old that it runs on a legacy system few of us have.  Old OS are no longer supported back beyond XP - and think how many of these we have paid for and 'wasted'.  Simming requires the most efficient compatible OS that exists.  (Why did I waste money on Vista, stupid me?)

[Highiron]

All the energy spent on endless speculation of what L.M. may or may not intend should be spent on something way more productive. I think it's safe for me to remove my tinfoil hat now, but only for a minute...If you can't afford Prepar3D, dont use it.If you have doubts about L.M.'s intentions, don't use it.If Prepar3D is inferior to your FSX installation, don't use it.If you're concerned about issues, even ones that have been fixed for the next update, don't use it.If you do not like the EULA, don't use it.If you want 100% backward compatibility for the next 10 years, don't use it.If you feel you have nothing to gain from Prepar3D, (can you guess it?)Why is there no forethought on these simple concepts before someone hits their "post" button?What is it going to take for the seemingly endless full circle of the same topics to reach their conclusion?There are now platforms out in the community to suit everyone's individual needs. Find yours and go use it and enthusiastically participate in those forums.

[Ben Cap]

Highiron, on 11 February 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

If you can't afford Prepar3D, dont use it.If you have doubts about L.M.'s intentions, don't use it.If Prepar3D is inferior to your FSX installation, don't use it.If you're concerned about issues, even ones that have been fixed for the next update, don't use it.If you do not like the EULA, don't use it.If you want 100% backward compatibility for the next 10 years, don't use it.If you feel you have nothing to gain from Prepar3D, (can you guess it?)

Amen!

Edited by benorg, 11 February 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[flyerkg]

The more I look into Prepar3D the more that it seems like a good idea for me considering I spend most of my flight sim time modifying scenery. If I decide to test Prepar3D, there would be no lost time and no lost money for me.

[Ian McPhail]

HIghIron:  A beautiful and clear summary.  +1

[gfd]

Have read with interest, all of the speculation regarding the future of P3D. We are all apprehensive about the future of simming. I personally don't have any knowledge of X Plane. I haven't used P3D. I do use FSX and if LM does one thing only, they should take a page out of Microsoft's book and stabilize the platform (read Windows XP and Windows 7). If someone writes sub standard software to get a quick sale, then buyer beware. The platform should reject the application. It should surprise no one that many sales of FSX addons are final. Now why would the vendor do that.......?I would think that if LM really didn't want us using the software, there would be a serious vetting process before one would even be allowed to make a purchase. Instead, LM has said, quite clearly I believe, that the software is not to be used for entertainment purposes. That seems to leave a lot of room for use: Education, therapy, training, on and on. The day may come where the purchase requirements are tightened up. I don't see that soon. Normally, requirements are tight to start and are then loosened up.As far as we enthusiasts being used as P3D beta testers, think about that. Most of the P3D users are saying that the platform is superior to FSX. If that's true, what are FSX users? Alpha testers?As far as PMDG goes; as far as I can understand, they have a business model that states that their product is for entertainment purposes. That would disqualify their product. But hey, the world will not end if PMDG does not develop for P3D. They create amazing product, but they are not the sole reason FSX is still used. Furthermore, if FSX users migrate wholesale over to P3D, PMDG will adjust or see their revenue go south.It's in our nature the speculate, but maybe we should all just relax for awhile and let events play out. For all we know, LM and MS have a deal to create a retail version of P3D once it hits vs 2 and call it FSX XI. That may be far fetched, but as long as we are speculating...I personally wonder if MS had some concern about the users that got left high and dry when FS development was discontinued. As has been stated several times, MS and LM have legions of legal eagles who could have crafted the terms of sale for P3D any way management desired. Perhaps we now have a new/newer platform which will just keep getting better as time goes on.OK, now I'll take off my rose coloured glasses and get back to business.

[Noel]

Leen3131cs, on 06 January 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

The Unofficial Prepar3D AVSIM forum , is there because AVSIM welcomes all sim-users.Among our flightsimfriends are many professionals using Prepar3d , thats why.Nevertheless on that same forum you can read Prepar3d is absolutely not ment to be a consumer-product.Latest developments in simworld will probably open LM`s eyes and I expect them to start building the wall shortly.Alltough it might generate some revenues for LM ,its very unrealistic to expect them enter the gaming industry.Leen de Jager

Leen, they don't have to formally enter the 'gaming industry' to take full advantage of the fact as they develop P3D there will be 1000's of hobbyists who wish to use the product.  As long as the software is designed to run on public OS' such as MS Windows, what is their big loss?  Further, the fact that there is full backwards compatibility w/ FSX add ons suggests there their first audience is indeed the hobbyist since these are the only people en masse who know about these add ons.   World wide, there are enough hobbyists who will cough up the $500 entry fee, or more as the product develops, PLUS the monthly subscription fees start to turn into real $$--at least enough to help support its further development.  I can't see them ignoring this just so they can appeal only to 'professionals' or 'students' or whatever.  What is their worst case scenario, that because their high end product is used by 1000's of hobbyists, it is somehow not worthy of the attn of professionals?  I don't see much downside really.  I don't think they need to make a formal announcement they are 'entering the gaming industry' because there is no fixed border between 'gaming' and 'simming' and 'training'. Students who use this product aren't going to suddenly stop having fun and get all serious ;o)Let's say, worldwide, as P3D improves steadily, enough to where all sorts of RW pilots right on thru to hobbyists, begin to see that THIS is an awesome product worth paying for.  This could most certainly happen (i.e., the market will grow substantially as the product matures), perhaps to the point that 100,000 hobbyist/would-be student pilot/etc subscribers, worldwide, join up.   This doesn't sound at all outlandish to me.  Just look at what happens when something really cool develops (like iPhone if you will), millions of folks who would otherwise not be interested suddenly become so.   So w/ 100K subscribers, at the new sign on price of $1,000, plus $15/mo ongoing subscription (recall WOWC and it's following, about 10 MILLION as of last November).  At the end of year 1, LM collects $118,000,000 gross.  That's enough to keep the product alive and developing. Yes, hypothetical numbers, but to me this doesn't really seem unrealistic provided the product truly matures.  Think about streaming realtime photorealistic scenery, ultra high mesh resolution etc.  We're not too far from this possibility, so for LM to try to prevent this by not considering it, seems incredibly odd, no matter what their core audience starts out to be.  Further, as they continue developing it, they may sell it back to someone else to manage the consumer arm--I'm convinced there is a market there as the product gets really really mature, which it likely willNoel

[OzWhitey]

Agree with the concepts expressed - but 100,000 hobbyists@$1000 plus ongoing sub?I don't work in the FSX addon industry but i'm guessing at that price you'll get 1,000, maybe.

[Noel]

OzWhitey, on 18 March 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Agree with the concepts expressed - but 100,000 hobbyists@$1000 plus ongoing sub?I don't work in the FSX addon industry but i'm guessing at that price you'll get 1,000, maybe.

I think you have to frame this as what if the product really matured to a level you don't see currently:

• Streaming realtime photoreal scenery w/ mesh and texture resolution down to 10 cm
• Far superior ATC

Add to this the fact that worldwide there are some 200,000+ pilots.  How many wannabe pilots are there?  Let's say, for every RW pilot there are 2 wannabe pilots.  That's 600,000.  How many of those wouldn't want to use something so cool and so real?  Doesn't sound that outlandish to me!I think if you think about this as how many people would do it today, w/ P3D in the condition it's in, sure, 1000 sounds reasonable.  But what if the product becomes something you just have to have because it's so dang cool?!