NGX Feature Request (Structural Icing)

[JET 1 0]

Have you used FS Captain and if so, how's the simulated structural icing?

My FS computer is busted, so I haven't used the latest version which includes the "hazard pack". It has some other interesting stuff too, like slippery runways according to wx conditions.They have a trial version available, give it a shot. I'd be interested to hear how those things work with the NGX.

[Buzz313th 0]

I just found a really good article from the same guy. It seem to actually take into account aircraft size and iceing rate is based on percentage of empty weight, not on pound per minute. So maybe it will work with bigger planes. When I get home will give it a test first with a default airliner and if it works then the NGX.Here's the link to the article http://us.generation-nt.com/answer/icing-msfs-whole-story-help-133772831.htmlSent from my iPhone using TapatalkJB

Edited January 9, 2012 by Buzz313th

[Buzz313th 0]

My FS computer is busted, so I haven't used the latest version which includes the "hazard pack". It has some other interesting stuff too, like slippery runways according to wx conditions.They have a trial version available, give it a shot. I'd be interested to hear how those things work with the NGX.

I'll download the demo and check it out, thanksSent from my iPhone using TapatalkJB

[Gunju221 0]

That would be cool to have icing visuals on the wing!+1!

[Buzz313th 0]

So the Ice gauge works without interfering with any of the NGX systems including weight. The ice weight acumulates at a rough weight of 2 lbs per second in severe icing conditions. I used the AP to hold a constant heading, alt and speed to make it easier to see the effects on AOA and power required for level flight as the ice built up. After 3 minutes the aircraft needed an aditional 25% power and an aditional 4 degrees of alpha to maintain level flight. After 10 minutes it needed a total of 40% more power and 6 degrees of alpha. The default 737 would start to show flight instability after the gauge turned yellow and it got worse when it went to red. After 10 minutes in severe icing in the default 73, it exhibited an uncommanded roll which led to an unrecoverable departure. Unfortunately the NGX did not show any signs of flight instability after the gauge went to yellow or red, but as I mentioned above, flight perormance dropped significantly.Hitting the Wing Anti Ice will imediately remove all the structural ice weight, meaning, the anti ice on the NGX is simulating boots more than hot wings, but thats more of an FSX thing than an NGX thing. So it's definately working, but IMHO, it's not building ice fast enough and it's really not the most elegant fix to get what I'm looking for.. It would be nice if the rate of acumulation could be accelerated via the XML and if the threshold where the gauge transitioned from Blue to yellow to red was lower. But for now, this gives me more to simulate consequences from flying through icing conditions than without using the gauge.I placed the gauge on the 2d center pedistal where there was empty space and made it really small. It didn't hurt performance at all.JB

[alvin 0]

Why can't you just accept the answer is No? This is just like the Weather Gauge thing. They told you it couldn't be realistically simulated so they are not gonna make one. So now they tell you the same thing about icing but your gonna debate it even when they told you no again? Even if they decided to try an simulate it, they probably couldnt do it anyway cause they at or near the texture and animations limit. Most importantly it would be unrealistic which is why the weather gauge is not there, and the texture and animations limit is probably the reason for the 2d throttle panel not being there, in addition to the performance issue.

Paul, I think there is nothing wrong with suggestions like this, as long as they are phrased as ideas/suggestions not as demands. Some potentially nice ideas have already been put forward in this thread as a result of discussion on how to simulate icing (I am speaking about the flight model, not visuals), so it I would say it is quite a constructive topic.As a developer I would be quite interested in ideas of users: ideas that are not feasible, have a poor ratio of coding effort to gain, or are just not well thought out, are quite numerous - but there are always a few jewels among them, or at least something that might inspire a very clever solution. Without discussing and challenging the limitations of FSX, all these wonderful ways how to bypass them wouldn't be found. And of course in the end it is developers' right to decide to what to code, and what to leave out. But as long as the discussion is constructive and not demanding, I wouldn't treat it as challenging the developers, but rather as something that ultimately could turn out to be something useful.cheers, Edited January 9, 2012 by alvin

[Guest]

Paul, I think there is nothing wrong with suggestions like this, as long as they are phrased as ideas/suggestions not as demands. Some potentially nice ideas have already been put forward in this thread as a result of discussion on how to simulate icing (I am speaking about the flight model, not visuals), so it I would say it is quite a constructive topic.As a developer I would be quite interested in ideas of users: ideas that are not feasible, have a poor ratio of coding effort to gain, or are just not well thought out, are quite numerous - but there are always a few jewels among them, or at least something that might inspire a very clever solution. Without discussing and challenging the limitations of FSX, all these wonderful ways how to bypass them wouldn't be found. And of course in the end it is developers' right to decide to what to code, and what to leave out.But as long as the discussion is constructive and not demanding, I wouldn't treat it as challenging the developers, but rather as something that ultimately could turn out to be something useful.cheers,

I quote you because I fully agree with you above all this statement : " Without discussing and challenging the limitations of FSX, all these wonderful ways how to bypass them wouldn't be found "Only genius think in the directions that normal person can't see or ignore.

[Buzz313th 0]

My FS computer is busted, so I haven't used the latest version which includes the "hazard pack". It has some other interesting stuff too, like slippery runways according to wx conditions.They have a trial version available, give it a shot. I'd be interested to hear how those things work with the NGX.

Downloaded the demo. Haven't installed it yet. Waiting on an answer from the developer whether I can only install the hazard pack, or disable everything else included in the package as I'm not interested in any of the other features.After reading a bit at his forum and unable to find anything regarding the compatability with the NGX, it's interesting to see he has implemented engine flameouts due to ice chunks breaking off and entering the engine. The curiosity might get the best of me and I might install it before hearing back from him.Edit.... Just used google to search his forum and in fact the NGX seems to be compatible. JB Edited January 9, 2012 by Buzz313th

[JET 1 0]

Downloaded the demo. Haven't installed it yet. Waiting on an answer from the developer whether I can only install the hazard pack, or disable everything else included in the package as I'm not interested in any of the other features.Edit.... Just used google to search his forum and in fact the NGX seems to be compatible.

Indeed is NGX a supported addon, according to their forum. Having used earlier versions, the program is highly configurable, but I doubt that everything else can be turned off. Never hurts to ask!

[Paul Deemer 13]

A 737NG is not going to be seriously affected by icing in real life unless you fly headlong into a thunderstorm anyway. The antiice systems are very good (much better than the boots on a turboprop or other small plane).

Paul, I think there is nothing wrong with suggestions like this, as long as they are phrased as ideas/suggestions not as demands. Some potentially nice ideas have already been put forward in this thread as a result of discussion on how to simulate icing (I am speaking about the flight model, not visuals), so it I would say it is quite a constructive topic.

Okay if they want to use some third party software and risk screwing up their NGX flight dynamics be my guest. What Ryan said above makes sense to me and I am not gonna nitpick or worry about icing if the real world 737NG is not seriously affected by it to start with. Edited January 9, 2012 by UAL115

[Buzz313th 0]

Okay if they want to use some third party software and risk screwing up their NGX flight dynamics be my guest.

Who says that any other addon will screw with the FD of the NGX. Last thing I want is to do that. But some forthought and research might bring an added factor of realism. Don't you agree?

and I am not gonna nitpick or worry about icing if the real world 737NG is not seriously affected by it to start with.

Don't fool yourself, because of statements regarding how impregnable the NG might be in icing conditions, especially severe icing or freezing rain. The NG pilots moving people all about the world will still avoid hazardous icing conditions if possible and last if practical.Considering freezing rain, the NG is just as vulnerable to uncontrolled ice buildup as any aircraft. The only practical option for a crew to clear all the ice acumulated by Freezing Rain, is to get the plane into atmospheric conditions that will melt it off. Sublimation is an option as well. Although not practical, as the rate of sublimation would take too long to get rid of all the ice. <<<<<< (Edited to be technically correct) :( Both Severe icing and Freezing rain pose an imediate flight condition to all aircraft, that if not dealt with right away, will shortly progress into an inflight emergency.... and this is asuming that you currently have no abnormalities or failures that could hinder the icing system to begin with. Am I correct to guess, that you fly with atleast one of the NGX's failure generators enabled?JB Edited January 9, 2012 by Buzz313th

[Paul Deemer 13]

Be my guest, its not important to me and I am happy with it as is.

[pete_auau 1,163]

Be my guest, its not important to me and I am happy with it as is.

why be so negative for surely if some one can come up with addon thats works and doesnt effect any aircraft flight charactistics wouldnt you like to see be implemented

[Paul Deemer 13]

why be so negative for surely if some one can come up with addon thats works and doesnt effect any aircraft flight charactistics wouldnt you like to see be implemented.

In order for it to be realistic they would have to change or make adjustments to the NGX's flight dynamics. If they did not then the gauge is just eye candy just like the weather radar would be. Which is why PMDG has not modeled it. Once you start messing with the NGX flight model its sure to start affecting and messing other things up.However If they can pull it off without screwing up the NGX I will be a believer. Not being negative about anything, I just accept that if PMDG didn't model it then there is a very good reason and thats all I need to know. Edited January 10, 2012 by UAL115

[Buzz313th 0]

In order for it to be realistic they would have to change or make adjustments to the NGX's flight dynamics

A few posts up are the results on the NGX for the test I did with the ice gauge. You will see that it simulates some of the flight dynamic changes that you would find when you acumulate ice. I have done 2 tests and now I am doing a third on a flight to denver with simulated icing conditions along the way and it's working out very nice. I am not seeing anything to indicate it has any adverse effects on the NGX. It is also simulating quite well the effects of freezing rain. The Anti Ice is not removing the effects of this unless you descend to warmer air. For me this is a very nice partial/temporary solution for a realistic condition that did not exists before.

If they did not then the gauge is just eye candy just like the weather radar would be. Which is why PMDG has not modeled it.

No eye candy actually. I placed the guage on one of the panels and decreased it's size to one pixel and it's not even visible.Considering this is a utility both not designed for the NGX and external, It seems possible to go further with the structural ice simulation, possibly bringing more if not all the effects of icing to a particular aircraft addon. Again, maybe a developer can chime in.

Once you start messing with the NGX flight model its sure to start affecting and messing other things up

Well after 2.5 tests so far, I haven't seen anything to indicate it has messed anything up other than enhance the imersion and add a bit more reality to my simming experience.

However If they can pull it off without screwing up the NGX I will be a believer. Not being negative about anything, I just accept that if PMDG didn't model it then there is a very good reason and thats all I need to know.

Excellent, I'm sure if they wanted to bad enough they could pull it off. Then you might be a believer. Your loyalty to PMDG is extrordinary. I'm sure it makes them very proud to see their impact on some in the flight sim community.JB Edited January 10, 2012 by Buzz313th