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Misaligned Localizers


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17 replies to this topic

#1 Berzerker

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:46 PM

Not sure if anyone's noticed this, but there are some misaligned localizers at various airports, the ones that I've seen so far are Runway 22R at JFK Airport in New York (KJFK) and Runway 36 at Naha Airport in Okinawa, Japan (ROAH)

Here: http://berz.me/pics/...21-22-04-16.png , and here http://berz.me/pics/...21-22-04-53.png you can see the plane coming in for a misaligned landing.

Doing the autoland, the airplane will follow the localizer according to how it is programmed incorrectly, running straight into where it's shown in ADE as the stock airport. As you can see here (http://berz.me/pics/...21-22-04-30.png) on the plane's map, the runway is also misaligned with the planned ILS trajectory outlined by the FMC. I assume that moving the localizer to the end of the runway (as seen here: http://berz.me/pics/...21-22-04-36.png in ADE), rather than next to it is the fix, however, when I compile it and place it in add-on scenery, the localizer and glide slope no longer work at all, the plane won't pick up the signal. Is there something else that needs to be done, other than changing the heading/positioning of the localizer? Or am I on the completely wrong path and should I be doing something else to fix it?

Thanks for any help.

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#2 PHXMD-11

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:21 PM

I do believe that there is a magnetic variance file in a sticky at the top of the PMDG General Forum. Download that and put it into your scenery file in the FSX main/master file. That may fix it.

And there is an option in the FMC that you can turn on that will automatically set the course selectors to the FSX ILS frequency (which is the one you want to use rather than the course that are on ILS plates).

Kenny Lee
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#3 Richard Sennett

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:45 PM

And there is an option in the FMC that you can turn on that will automatically set the course selectors to the FSX ILS frequency


Is that set on a fresh install or do I have to in and change it from the start, thanks.

Rich Sennett
 

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#4 PHXMD-11

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:11 AM

That should be defaulted to ON.

Kenny Lee
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#5 downscc

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:43 AM

JFK ILS 22R really is an offset localizer, I don't believe you can use autoland either in the sim or real world. Notice that on the chart the location of the localizer/dme is clearly shown along side the runway.

Dan Downs, Maj USAF (RET)

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#6 PHXMD-11

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:49 AM

JFK ILS 22R really is an offset localizer, I don't believe you can use autoland either in the sim or real world. Notice that on the chart the location of the localizer/dme is clearly shown along side the runway.


The chart for JFK ILS 22R does not say anything about autoland being prohibited. Only thing it says is "Radar Required".

Kenny Lee
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#7 ukflight

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:14 AM

And there is an option in the FMC that you can turn on that will automatically set the course selectors to the FSX ILS frequency (which is the one you want to use rather than the course that are on ILS plates).

A pointer to where that actually is would be most welcome - I have scanned the manual and the FMC options pages and can not find it. Put it down to getting old. :search:

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#8 rocketfs

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:27 AM

The chart for JFK ILS 22R does not say anything about autoland being prohibited. Only thing it says is "Radar Required".


JFK RWY 22R is a Cat I runway. No autoland on that one...

http://www.airport-d...ls/JFK-22R.html

Bert Van Bulck

#9 flyfed

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:40 AM

The inbound course on the localizer is 222o (on the approach plate) while the runway centerline is 224.0o (from the airport diagram).
Herman Ross
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#10 PerWel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:36 AM

You are on the right track. Move the beam down to the end and place it like the one to the right for 22L, it must overlap and placed in the middle. You also have to change the heading to 210.71 , same heading as
22L. This should fix it, have done this several times with a lots of airports, including Aerosofts Arlanda Sweden, 19R and Left was wrong. The ILS beams was not placed on the opposite end properly. When
I did that they where aligned as they should.

Try fly it with some smaller plane like the Carenado Twin, I use that one when I fix alignments like this.
If it works OK with those it just MUST work with the NGX. If it does not pick up the signal puzzels me. Do the above fix one more time, must work. I will also do a try to see if I can align it properly.

If you have FlighsSim Commander you can also see how you are doing, zoom in to the airport and you can see the missalignment/aligments of the ILS.
You must run the Database Manager first after editing so it picks up what you have done.

Per W Sweden

 

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#11 PerWel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:58 AM

I think I have fixed it. Have not tested in FSX but....

I started up FlightSim Commander and checked KJFK and you are right the 22R was missaligned. Started ADE and moved down the ILS to the end, adjusted the headin and Compiled and saved the output to
Addon/scenery. Ran FSCs Database manager to update its database. Started FSC and the missalignment was gone, perfect aligned as it should.

From what I know if an ILS is shows up in FSC it works in FSX, have never evers seen a ILS in FSC that does not work in FSX.

I will do a test flighs later today, my Yoke is disconnected and put away. I am working with a ASP.NET project for a company right now. Need room on my desk.

Per W Sweden

 

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#12 Sekstifire

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:02 AM

...
And there is an option in the FMC that you can turn on that will automatically set the course selectors to the FSX ILS frequency (which is the one you want to use rather than the course that are on ILS plates).

The Course setting on the MCP does not matter when you are tracking a LOC. You cannot fly radials on a localizer, you simply track the point where the radio signal for the intersecting radio beams are the strongest.

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#13 kevinh

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

The Course setting on the MCP does not matter when you are tracking a LOC. You cannot fly radials on a localizer, you simply track the point where the radio signal for the intersecting radio beames are the strongest.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...

The course setting does matter. The AP doesn't know what inbound course to fly without it. It can't work it out from the deviation signal alone. If the selected inbound course doesn't match the actual ILS heading the aircraft will track the localiser with a lateral offset. If the course error is too large the aircraft might even turn the wrong direction to intercept the localiser.

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#14 PerWel

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:10 AM

Don't forget to move the Localizer Antenna too. Just a visual thing. It is just at the narrow end of the ILS beam, place it at the same spot when you move the ILS. A little black bar about same length as the runways width.

If you change the magvar file for a newer one it only fixes new courses for the Navigraph data. Also you must change all airports for it, there is a magvar parameter in each airport. What it does I have no idea or
how it affects navigation. In real life magvar is important, remember that from my flying time in a small Piper. Hopefully it is a thing for some future feature that never made it before they closed FSX develop team down. I updated mine magvar file but I did not notice any difference, nothing anyway that messed up my flights. Everything looked/worked exactly the same as with the old one to me. !??

Anyway I have not gone down deep into FSX, magvar, Navigraph and all that to make FSX work 100% with real charts. FSX is not a real simulator, just a very very advanced airplane game. A very good one too for that price, also the PMDGs planes. But I do not expect them to be 100% like a real flight, to many limits in FSX. I think we would have to pay a little more to get that. A few $100 000 maybe. FSX is anyway the best when it comes to the look of the world/scenery and panels.

Per W Sweden

 

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#15 HiFly

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 01:51 PM

Real pilots seldom use autoland except as needed to stay current. Sure this is just a sim and you can manipulate the AFCAD any way you want but if you want to learn how to fly correctly then if a published approach has an offset localizer you don't try to autoland...you learn to manually fly the airplane...at least from the Cat I MDA to the runway! If you are unable to accomplish this then select ILS for 22L (KJFK) which IS aligned with runway. Bottom line is that one of the requirements for full (Cat IIIa or Cat IIIb) autoland is that the localizer be ALIGNED with the runway centerline.

That being said, FSX default database IS notorious for having many improperly aligned localizers. So if the approach plates indicate that the localizer SHOULD BE aligned then to fly it correctly would require that you use an AFCAD editor to set the localizer true course to the same as the true runway heading before attempting the approach. Unless required for currency or ACTUALLY encountering a near 0-0 situation most pilots, however, delight in flying as much of the approach MANUALLY as the situation allows. That is why we are pilots...we enjoy ACTUALLY FLYING the aircraft rather than watching the computer do it for us. Just MHO.
Craig Williams