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Only FSX AA/AF Settings Work in DX10 Preview!

dx10 settings nvidainspector

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32 replies to this topic

#1 firehawk44

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:02 AM

I just read something interesting regarding NVIDIA Inspector and Display Settings for DX10 Preview from NickN (the unofficial computer guru and FSX expert) - "In DX10 the application [FSX] will ignore any external AA and filtering commands other than the checkbox and dropdowns in FSX. That is another reason for the perf difference.. there is NO clean and sharp detail AA available in that mode. You are forced to run the low-grade MS hardware set level AA." I suspect this is the reason why I had the best DX10 graphics when I returned my display settings and NI to the default for FSX and turned on AA/AF inside of FSX. The FSX.cfg "tweaks" will still work though. He wrote this post - http://www.simforums...topic41980.html - before Steve's DX10 Shader fix but this would not affect the display settings. I recall seeing something like this several years ago but could not find it (from one of the developers of FSX). So we can continue to keep our DX9 settings in the NI and display settings and still run DX10. This will make it easier when switching between DX9 and DX10.

Best regards,
Jim

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#2 Paul J

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

Boy, Jim - don't we just disagree on that man. :friends:

That just flies in the face of Mike Krawczyk's 8xSGSS settings, your earlier 4xSGSS suggestions, Steve's blog, and my own testing and usage of all of these settings. Yes - one must tick "AA" within the sim in order to get any kind of AA, and within that framework the Inspector settings do still work in some good degree. Without the SGSS there's horrible shimmering and very mediocre AA.

DX10, Orcas area (bloom on) and Inspector pics - https://www.dropbox....mvkj/XE9QH41rwk

#3 TheFamilyMan

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 03:10 PM

I spent one evening trying all posted settings for using AA in DX10 preview, and this is what I experienced. The NI basic AA setting is not honored by FSX, but the transparency supersample setting is and does a fine job of removing shimmering from trees and other autogen items. The good new is that the in-game DX10 AA is OK, but definately not as good as the 8xS AA setting in DX9. I used Carenado aircraft VCs and TrackIR as my test environment: in DX10 preview no NI AA setting could remove swimming jaggies around the instruments (which TrackIR use brings out in droves) and in fact I could not tell any difference between any NI AA settings in this regard. DX9 with 8xS AA is pretty close to perfect in this test environment. So I'm stuck...do I want the DX10 FPS boost or prettier VCs (i've yet to decide). I did not bother yet with investigating AF settings.
Rod O.

#4 Paul J

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:18 PM

:smile: ... sounds about right, Rod, you've got it pretty as it is, much though I don't see why I can get such good detail and sharpness when many others apparently can't. 90% of my pics are 75% jpg's, and don't even reflect the clarity of the original "V" key .bmp's.
One point I might mention - I'm not here trying to persuade you or anybody else to "jump on the DX10 bandwagon", as everyone is different and have different views on what they like or don't like - I'm here because I can help get somebody over the hump, as it were, that's all. We all have our reasons, but, personally - it's never been a frame boost with me, as i can tolerate down to 21 and up, but I do want a decent cloud load - doesn't have to be 4096 x 4096, because I'm looking elsewhere - they're background. I also want a decent amount of AI around me, if I'm fly the Maddog, and I want a decent amount of GA if I'm at Orcas, or Harvey, or Vashon, etc., plus I like road traffic. It's the general ambience, and DX9 sure can't deliver the same quantity of goods that DX10 can. For vfr - those waves, with whitecaps showing the wind direction! Wow!
I think it's all perception: If DX9 was the new guy in town - who, in their right mind would want to have to pull back most of the sliders in order to get 30 frames? In the three weeks since the forum was launched, I haven't looked at a DX9 screen.
While I agree with your technical appraisal - and as a solid user of TIR for years, I haven't noticed seeing any particularly strong jaggies on any instruments.

https://www.dropbox....mvkj/XE9QH41rwk

https://www.dropbox....nh2d/lUsnzREZt1

Anyway - thanks for adding your thoughts in here, Rod, they're appreciated, and I hope you can come up with an AA config that really works for everyone!

All the Best,

pj

#5 RWFeldman

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:27 PM

<p>My DSX9 performance and quality are

<br />
&quot;In DX10 the application [FSX] will ignore any external AA and filtering commands other than the checkbox and dropdowns in FSX. That is another reason for the perf difference.. there is NO clean and sharp detail AA available in that mode. You are forced to run the low-grade MS hardware set level AA.&quot;<br />

<br />
<br />
NickN is correct and I dont understand the not believing it?<span style="color: rgb(218, 165, 32);">Untick/Shutoff AA in DX10 preview and post a screen shot with NI settings active</span>.. That will prove if NI is injecting/enhancing AA in DX 10 PREVIEW. That simple. The increase peformance is the result of lower IQ not because of shader mods. DX10 HAS ALWAYS HAD BETTER PERFORMANCE at the expense of quality.</p>

Rendi

 

KAB200_sig4.jpg

 

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#6 TheFamilyMan

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:53 PM

No animosity here; I applaud the DX10 work that's been done and its night'n'day better than what it was. As I said, for me its a tough choice (but then again this quandry is not new in FSX: one is forced choose what's important to max out and and what's not and everyone is different in this regard).
Rod O.

#7 firehawk44

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 04:54 PM

Untick/Shutoff AA in DX10 preview and post a screen shot with NI settings active..


Thanks Rendi for your comments. I just did my normal testing flight from KLAX to KSFO. Started out with AA/AF engaged in game plus I had Srdan Kosta's NI Settings (from his guide). Near KSFO, returned NI to default FSX display settings and saw no change whatsoever in the graphics which means to me, FSX wasn't even looking at the NI or display driver settings. The shimmering and stuff people were seeing was fixed with Steve's DX10 fix, not by the display drivers. I hope people using DX10 understand the simple settings that are required to run FSX in DX10 mode. Moving your FSX sliders higher might enhance the graphics somewhat as GPU's and computers have increased in power since DX10 preview was released. I definitely see better quality graphics but not from NI or the display drivers.

I hope this doesn't turn off anyone as DX10 does have some enhancements over DX9 and the main one is the shadows from the sun inside the cockpit. You can look on Phil Taylor's blog when he was the lead developer to see additional improvements.

Best regards,
Jim

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#8 Paul J

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 05:27 PM

The increase in performance is because the memory model in DX9 is different to that in DX10. I DX9 the gpu's memory is replicated into the system memory. In DX10 it is not the case. This also means that OOM's are almost a thing of the past when using DX10.

#9 Paul J

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 06:45 PM

It was quite apparent, right from the start, that AA wasn't responsive in the way which DX9 was, however - it took one post from Mike Krawczyk - with pics, showing the impact that Inspector's settings do have in DX10:-

http://forum.avsim.n...r-nvidia-cards/, post #1. .... to show that DX10 could be almost as sharp as DX9 looks. I haven't gone looking for Nick's post, but the fact remains - NI does indeed inject AA Transparency Supersampling into FSX, whether AA is turned on within the sim or not.
Mike's post also give the reason that this is the case. http://www.overclock...d-supersampling

Just forget about fsx.cfg settings for AA and set your nvidia inspector like this:



Posted Image

You can also enable FXAA to further smoothen (but also blur) image.

I don't, however, agree with Mike on the need to forget about the AA settings within FSX:-

1). FSX looks ugly with a capital UG, when any kind of AA is turned off, inside the sim , or within NI.
2). FSX looks marginally better than 1). with AA on within the sim and not in NI.
3). FSX looks marginally better than 1). with 8xSGSS on within NI and not in FSX.
4). FSX looks a whole lot better than 1). with AA on in FSX and 8xSGSS on in NI.
5). To me - FSX looks as good as it ever did using DX9 on my PC. Furthermore - there are hundreds - not ten or twenty pics in 3840 x 1024 for anyone to see and judge, on this forum - they are jpg's reduced from .bmp format, and taken over many different areas of the PNW over the last three weeks, testing and testing again and again. They have lots of very sharp, clear textures and details, flown with some of the heaviest loads this pc is capable of.

#10 firehawk44

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 07:57 PM

I don't, however, agree with Mike on the need to forget about the AA settings within FSX


Like Rendi said above, turn off AA in FSX and let NI handle the AA then take a picture. As you saw, it doesn't work with NI or the Display Driver. It only works with it turned on within the application. I just completely turned my NI/Display drivers to the default for FSX. I have AA/AF turned on in FSX. The picture quality in DX10 was at or above the quality in DX9 plus I was running into the 60 fps. I see a bit of shimmers in the distance but it's not a show stopper. Everything in the immediate area is clear and that's all I care about. Is it better than DX9? Unlikely as DX10 was never fully developed for FSX but Steve's fix made it a viable option again for some like me. Regarding the bits of shimmering I saw in the distance, I intend to turn on those DX9 AA settings in NI and see if that fixed the problem but I seriously doubt it will.

Best regards,
Jim

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#11 sargeski

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 08:19 PM

Enable AA and AF within FSX and add the following for an NVIDIA Inspector profile for FSX. You need to be running FSX in full screen mode as this only works for full screen. This actually uses an acknowledged bug in nvidia drivers that causes transparency AA setting to apply to whole scene, not only transparent textures.

Posted Image

You can also enable FXAA to further smoothen (but also blur) image.

This was posted by Mike Krawczyk in an earlier thread. You can use 8XSGSS or 4XSGSS either one will increase image quality by reducing jaggies and most importantly reduce shimmering. This supposedly only works on Fermi cards 4XX, and 5XX. If you cannot see the difference in image quality somethings wrong.

As stated trying to force AA and AF solely through NVIDIA Inspector will result in no AA or AF being applied in FSX.

Paul J's above post is dead on.

Regards,

Bob

#12 RWFeldman

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:02 PM

You havnt said if you have AA turned off in FSX? I also notice you have NI set to "Override Application Settings". So, if this is the case, AA in FSX should be or can by turned off, unticked, as NI is controlling the AA now and the FSX AA should be doing nouthing.. Look at the FSX DX10 AA quality now and then change NI settings and see if it makes any difference keeping the FSX DX10 AA off.. If one were using "Enhance Application AA" I could almost understand it working and I can try something different. I too get a little better IQ quality in Full screen mode compared to windowed using the FSX AA also better Vsync. Thats not unique to DX 10.

Rendi

 

KAB200_sig4.jpg

 

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#13 Paul J

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 09:10 AM

Setup NI exactly as in Bob's post #11, and tick AA and set AF to Aniso within FSX. With 4x or 8xSGSS set in NI, one will get the results as shown in MikeK's pics.

I also notice you have NI set to "Override Application Settings". So, if this is the case, AA in FSX should be or can by turned off, unticked, as NI is controlling the AA now and the FSX AA should be doing nouthing..



The problem we're having in understanding the AA system, Rendi, is that with AA ticked in FSX, and Override being set in NI - the FSX-set AA still works as though NI was set to Application-controlled. The "Override" doesn't appear to have the effect that it's supposed to have, and therefore I have had to come to the conclusion - and now hold to the statement that NI-set AA - but only SGSS - is working in DX10.

With both off - no AA
With either off - limited AA
With both on - pretty good AA

#14 firehawk44

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:48 PM

You havnt said if you have AA turned off in FSX?


Rendi, he said he had AA/AF turned on within FSX in the his first sentence. That must be on if you are using DX10.

Best regards,
Jim

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#15 Paul J

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 02:39 PM

Thank you, Jim.