Will the SDK provide enough access to create a 2D panel?

[Bryn 72]

Hi,

 

While I like the 'flying feel' of the VC, I fly using the 2d panels because I find the VC unnatural and difficult to use.  Gauges are half the size of 2d panels, making them difficult to read.  And my cursor keeps slipping off dials and knobs, especially if my view is slipping around in turbulence, turns, and climbs.  I find it frustrating and, after a while, unenjoyable (despite how cool it looks). I end up back in 2d - that is just what I prefer.

 

But PMDG have said they won't be making a 2d panel for the 777, which is a bummer for simmers like me.

 

So, I was wondering, will the SDK and shipped gauges allow users like me to construct our own 2d panel?

 

My hope is that if the sdk is shipping with sufficient access for home cockpit makers and popup gauges, then it should have more than enough for 2ders like me to make our own 2d panel.

 

Bryn.

 

[Paul_Smith 92]

Not in the way you are thinking, no.

 

The fact that you say you find the guages too small or that your cursor 'keeps slipping off dials and knobs' tells me that you haven't discovered zooming yet. You already know how to move your view by holding the space bar and moving the mouse, well... as your view gets closer to being centered, start rolling the scroll wheel on your mouse and you will zoom right in until the guage is as large as you want, manipulate the control as you need to, then space bar, scroll wheel and mouse move to your next view. A little practise and it becomes very natural.  

[Bryn 72]

Yeh, I discovered zooming. But with a hand on my joystick, and a hand on my throttle, zooming and scrolling and pressing a button becomes too laborious (for me) compared to just pressing the darn button in the 2d view.

 

I've also tried setting nice EZCA views.  And I bought a Track-IR.  I find all that really awesome for little GA equipment, but in a jetliner, the 2d panel is far simpler to interface with (for me).  After having a look at the nice VC in a new plane and admiring the work, the next thing I always do is comment out the interior model and get on with flying these days.

 

The way that I am thinking is that the SDK would give me a c++ programming interface to trigger PMDG actions. Which I'd be happy to work with.  

 

Either way, if PMDG are going to cater for the home cockpit builders at some point, I guess they'll have to build an interface, and that interface should just as easily be applied to the construction of a 2d panel.

[Paul_Smith 92]

...with a hand on my joystick, and a hand on my throttle, zooming and scrolling and pressing a button becomes too laborious (for me) compared to just pressing the darn button in the 2d view.

...

The way that I am thinking is that the SDK would give me a c++ programming interface to trigger PMDG actions. Which I'd be happy to work with.

 

Either way, if PMDG are going to cater for the home cockpit builders at some point, I guess they'll have to build an interface, and that interface should just as easily be applied to the construction of a 2d panel.

Although the words you use all make sense on their own, they just don't seem to add up.

 

To press a button in a 2D view you have to take your hands off your throttle and stick so 2D/VC makes no difference there. The other option is to program buttons on the T&S to do the job, but if you are going to do that then adding zoom control is trival so again, 2D or VC makes no difference. 

 

As for using the SDK, either you are a published sim maker or a cockpit builder sufficiently au fait with SDK's to not need to ask the questions you are asking, or you really do not know what is involved in delivering what you are asking for. Yes, PMDG will have an SDK (they said they will and all their recent models have had one), and yes it is designed to be used by home cockpit builders. In theory, that would allow someone to write a C++ program to interogate the SDK and do as you suggest. ie. display a 2D representation of the rather glorious VC cockpit they already provide, but lets just examine the idea in a little more detail.

 

Say you make a call to the SDK and it responds with the curent value for the rate of climb. In a GA aircraft, you just translate that value into a needle deflection on a simple guage, for a T7, you would need to model the whole PFD. I like to think I am quite handy when it comes to cutting code, but that is a challange I would rather not tackle without a lot more information about its operation then I currently have access to. So unless you are really rather gifted, you are unlikely to come up with a 2D display that is much better then the GA guages you see when you press the 'W' key. The second part of the idea, that of interacting with that T7... well you are back to taking your hands off the trottle and stick and we already talked about that.   

[EGLL77W 1,508]

When I'm flying manually in the NGX I use the PFD pop out - solves all my issues and I'm using a 24 inch monitor! Those things you find annoying are very apparent in the real world.

 

I can't believe you'd want to miss out on the 777's VC though..

[Bryn 72]

I'm not about to rewrite the gauges. They've already been beautifully rendered by PMDG.

Instead, I'd create some background bitmaps. I'd then place the PMDG gauges home cockpit makers use, like those in the pop-up 2d displays, by writing a revised panel.cfg.

 

I would then write small button gauges and use the SDK to trigger actions from button switches and presses on my own 2d panel. So if I create a VNAV button, I'd write the code that would trigger PMDGs VNAV.

 

Through the panel.cfg, I'd put everything together.

 

While writing PMDG type gauges is a particularly complex exercise, building a panel using existing gauges or creating simple interactive gauges is not. That is as Microsoft intended.

 

On the issue of using the 2d panel, it's not taking my hand off the throttle that bothers me. You have to do that in a real plane too! It's taking my hand off the throttle, panning, zooming and clicking that I find unnatural. In a real plane and in a 2d panel, all I need to do is press the button.

 

Anyway, my preference for interacting with the sim is neither here nor there. If the SDK allows me to trigger PMDG actions, like toggling PMDG's VNAV on and off,I will be able to happily start my own 2d panel project.

[Airbusman330 300]

 

 

It's taking my hand off the throttle, panning, zooming and clicking that I find unnatural.

 

You can set multiple views that will make the VC behave like a 2d panel, you will no longer have to pan and zoom.

 

http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=ezdockcam

[Paul_Smith 92]

 

 

...I will be able to happily start my own 2d panel project.

Best of luck with that. To get ahead of the game, you could start a "Proof of Concept" using the NGX. I am sure it has pretty much the same interfaces. Let us know how you get on.

[Bryn 72]

The NGX already has an excellent 2d panel.The JS41 on the other hand... Though I don't think that has an SDK.

 

Oh, but I see your point about the interface. Good idea.

[percylee 13]

PMDG has stated they will have some pop up 2D panels  for the 777, you should be able to make a MCP and using key codes and FSUIBC be able to program the switches.  There are several good interface boards you can use at a very resonable cost.....as cheap as monitors are now if you added extra monitors you would be able to have full size PFD..ND..Eng inst and FMC....you would find a set up like this is far closer to a real sim than using VC panels....

percy lee

[Jackal. 25]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mZi4i-LI8bo#t=414s

 

 

There's your answer regarding the 2D panels!

[Tabs 2,790]

FYI - as long as you truly do use your own artwork (this means not screenshotting our VC and using it as the basis for it etc) then it appears that this will actually be allowed under the SDK and EULA - I mentioned it to RSR the other day. You'd have to create your own panel.cfg and everything and it would need to be submitted to us for verification that it does not contain our copyrighted art first. You will also be responsible for supporting it - I mean that, I will literally forward support tickets referencing it to you.

 

We realize there's people who want 2D over anything and if someone's really willing to do a project like this as an SDK based addon, we're willing to see where it goes.

[captainsazzman 83]

FYI - as long as you truly do use your own artwork (this means not screenshotting our VC and using it as the basis for it etc) then it appears that this will actually be allowed under the SDK and EULA - I mentioned it to RSR the other day. You'd have to create your own panel.cfg and everything and it would need to be submitted to us for verification that it does not contain our copyrighted art first. You will also be responsible for supporting it - I mean that, I will literally forward support tickets referencing it to you.

 

We realize there's people who want 2D over anything and if someone's really willing to do a project like this as an SDK based addon, we're willing to see where it goes.

 

Couldn't we just integrate this on top of the 777?

 

 

http://flightsimulatornewsbrief.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/freeware-boeing-777-panel-with-fmc-for.html

 

Its called the JB 777 panel and it's freeware. It's been used with project opensky and the other 'impure 777' (if you know what I mean). My point is would it be possible to install that 2D panel above the 777X and edit out some of the windows (it comes with its own 'mini-fmc' which would not be needed)?

[Mike777 163]

Hi, everyone,

 

On the Captain Sim forum, in a similar discussion about 2D cockpits, someone stated that he contacted the maker of the JB Panel, Greg Wilson, and that Greg said he doesn't want his panel or component parts, including gauge placement information, to be uploaded anywhere.

 

Mike

[petermaxkoller 0]

Bryn

 

I agree with you. I also use only 2D panels; I dont like the VC; I have 68 years maybe this is the problem. That is why I switched ti the iFly 737-800 who has a full 2D Cockpit (extended on two big 26" screen in my config); additionally you can click on the instruments and they are increasing even more.

 

It is a not very customer friendly from PMDG; just as 2D Panels are very easy to build.

 

Peter