ils approach do I press loc or app on mcp

[moey124 3]

I start it first and when I plane is ready I minizime fsx and click connect and it is connected and then in the first 20 mins it freezes fsx. U understand what I am saying.

[K.A.I. 0]

Moey124, do you have altitude HOLD selected when you are hitting the glide slope?

Try this: center with localizer (LOC on), select altitude hold in 4000ft(for example) and when you are still below glide slope, press APP.

[Megadog 0]

KIS gang! Just keep it simple.  Once in the terminal area you will be under controllers directions with vectors and altitudes unless you are cleared for the complete fms approach and cleared to land(very seldom happens).  Unless you are coming straight in  he or she will will put you on a down wind,  turn you X-wind then give you a 30 degree intercept heading and clear you for the approach ( 99% of the time you will be below the glide slope). Once cleared for the approach push the APP button and enjoy the ride!  I neglected to mention that once you are being vectored extend the RWY center line from the outer marker on the fms and you can watch the progression. Also keep in mind that the LOC  switch is used for localizer only approaches and Back course approaches.  If you should end up above G/S just use the vertical speed wheel to get you back to the glide slope . but be very careful when capturing from above.

 

The above is for the Boeing Fms equipped aircraft, but should be ok for the Airbus fms also. I have been retired for ten years so bear with me if my instructions are not exact!

[A_Pilot 5]

I'm surprised Kyle didn't point it out in a beautiful RTFM post, but the approach diagrams in the FCTM say to arm APP directly. Either HDG or LNAV is used for lateral guidance to the intercept, and prior to intercepting the localizer you arm the APP mode.

 

To toss in my 5 cents, this seems like a pretty straightforward thing as it reduces tasks required in what can become a very busy cockpit at a critical time in a flight, especially if you're trying to get down to CAT II or III minimums. Why in any aircraft someone would needlessly burden themselves with extra button pushing is beyond me!

 

However, individual airlines will have their own SOPs regarding this, all to be approved by the national regulatory body. And the approach diagrams are something that are required in company SOP's (at least in Canada), so I'm going to run with the Boeing approach diagram on this one, it being the only one available to me. (FCTM 5.11 and FCOM NP.21.43) And those both say to arm APP from HDG or LNAV mode for ILS approaches. Need anything more clearcut?

 

As my line indoc capt would tell me - why push LOC if you're not flying a LOC approach? 

 

Safety is simplicity. Pushing two buttons when only one would suffice is making things less simple!

 

Luc

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

I'm surprised Kyle didn't point it out in a beautiful RTFM post, but the approach diagrams in the FCTM say to arm APP directly. Either HDG or LNAV is used for lateral guidance to the intercept, and prior to intercepting the localizer you arm the APP mode.

 

You'd imagine I would.  I honestly try to avoid it when it requires digging into the FCOM/FCTM (versus the relatively smaller intro and tutorial).  I try...

 

I really like what you wrote about managing risk based on amount of work.  You don't normally find that kind of stuff in manuals, and that's where the forums really add value to the discussion.

[A_Pilot 5]

Thanks Kyle!

 

Yeah if i'm not mistaken the LOC mode is there to allow for a different vertical guidance to be used while still flying the localizer. VNAV + LOC would keep a nice SCDA approach to an MDA in lieu on an ILS. But if the ILS is the approach you want, then APP is the button you push!

[Peter Clark 21]

"Always" is a pretty strong term.

 

Try the LIZZI7A Arrival 16 at YMML, It's an RNAV with a 180kt max speed 90 degree left turn at 4000ft 13 DME from Melbourne.

 

The localizer and glideslope both intersect the RNAV section IN the turn at Bolinda BOL (ndb 362)

 

If you have APP mode selected as you start the turn, you will roll out wings level descending and with LOC & GS mode active.

 

If you don't... you'll probably be at 4000ft 2 dots above slope and increasing.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/MMLSR05-135.pdf

 

Without rolling the MCP altitude window down and getting onto FLCH quick smart, then getting back on glideslope will be a bit of a battle. Intercepting the Glideslope from above out of FLCH is an option, but it's not the best option.

 

The MEA for NEFER to BOL is 3000, the at or below restriction at is 6000, wouldn't you be coming around at the 3000 MEA and meet the GS at the proper elevation from http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/pending/dap/MMLII01-137.pdf ?

[razalom 19]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but does the FSX ATC sometimes just go wrong? I am still getting the hang of things at the moment before using VATSIM or similar and get vectored by the ATC  to land but I am unable to press the LOC button as I don't seem to be in range of it. I have to manually change my heading of the plane and only when I get a lot closer does the LOC button work.

 

Now is this me doing something wrong or is it just the FSX ATC being wrong?

 

Barry Hicks

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

Now is this me doing something wrong or is it just the FSX ATC being wrong?

 

I'd have to see your situation specifically to see how it's vectoring you, but the FSX ATC is absolutely terrible, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's leading you astray.

[razalom 19]

I'd have to see your situation specifically to see how it's vectoring you, but the FSX ATC is absolutely terrible, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's leading you astray.

Well looking at the radar on the 777 I was probably 30+ miles South of runway 34 @ YSSY. To me this just seemed too far compared to what the Flight Plan was showing from PFPX. 

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Well looking at the radar on the 777 I was probably 30+ miles South of runway 34 @ YSSY. To me this just seemed too far compared to what the Flight Plan was showing from PFPX.

Yeah, we normally aim for about 5-15nm depending on the approach. 30+ is well outside of any normal LOC range.

 

Also: you were looking at the nav display (ND). While radar can be displayed on the ND, it's more proper to refer to it as the nav display

[razalom 19]

Also: you were looking at the nav display (ND). While radar can be displayed on the ND, it's more proper to refer to it as the nav display

I stand corrected thanks

[777simmer 117]

I'm surprised Kyle didn't point it out in a beautiful RTFM post, but the approach diagrams in the FCTM say to arm APP directly. Either HDG or LNAV is used for lateral guidance to the intercept, and prior to intercepting the localizer you arm the APP mode.

 

To toss in my 5 cents, this seems like a pretty straightforward thing as it reduces tasks required in what can become a very busy cockpit at a critical time in a flight, especially if you're trying to get down to CAT II or III minimums. Why in any aircraft someone would needlessly burden themselves with extra button pushing is beyond me!

 

However, individual airlines will have their own SOPs regarding this, all to be approved by the national regulatory body. And the approach diagrams are something that are required in company SOP's (at least in Canada), so I'm going to run with the Boeing approach diagram on this one, it being the only one available to me. (FCTM 5.11 and FCOM NP.21.43) And those both say to arm APP from HDG or LNAV mode for ILS approaches. Need anything more clearcut?

 

As my line indoc capt would tell me - why push LOC if you're not flying a LOC approach?

 

Safety is simplicity. Pushing two buttons when only one would suffice is making things less simple!

 

Luc

the diagrams in the FCOM are quite conservative....way more conservative than how you fly in real life. For example it will tell you to select gear down and flaps 20 when the GS becomes alive.

 

In reality (talking 777-200 here by the way) you would intercept the GS with flaps 5.

And select gear down flaps 20 at around 2000ft above the airfield (a bit earlier in low vis conditions or other unfavourable conditions like gusty winds, very heavy, etc). This to avoid unnecesary noise and high fuel burn (every little bit helps).

 

Also to not get too slow for separation purposes.

 

And to further safe fuel we try to plan out whole descend as an idle descend.

Ofcourse ATC can not allways accomodate this, but we try.

And that means we are usually (slightly) high on approach (to avoid level flight segments).

 

And so, on a base turn to final you are very very often still (slightly) above the GS when cleared for the approach.

During the base leg you will see the GS slowly going above you (DME distance to the loc stays pretty much constant on base but you are still descending).......hopefully......just enough to be able to slow down and extend to flaps 5.....if not you will need a touch of speedbrakes to make sure you have flaps 5 before GS intercept.

 

Or on a straight in, you could be on the GS already....even slightly above it.....but still clean.

So you would use a little speed brakes to get below GS while descending to your cleared intermediate altitude.

With LOC captured and GS not armed.

Then on the level segment I would arm the GS, slow down and extend to flaps 5.

In ideal case GS capture occurs just before the throttle would want to advance again :-)

 

(If all works out perfectly, that perfect idle descend and no throttle movement untill flaps 30 are set is actually one of the most exciting things for us airliners these days. Gives us a big smile, lol)

 

So, To avoid capturing the GS before the LOC is captured I allways arm LOC first in those situations..... which is....I dont know... 7 out of 10 approaches or so.

 

But when I am already below GS when cleared approach, then ofcourse I would simply press the APP switch to arm both LOC and GS.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I stand corrected thanks

 

Welcome!  You're definitely seeing an oddity there.  VATSIM isn't quite as daunting as you'd think.  The Virtual ZLA has a set of pilot ratings that they give people to both practice and show their progress: http://pilotcerts.laartcc.org/page/ratings.html

 

There's no need to actually try the tests, but each rating listed on that page has a full voice script that you could easily study to get the hang of radio calls.  Plus, most of us controller types will guide you through it all, provided we're not in the middle of a busy event.

[pcubine 143]

but I am unable to press the LOC button as I don't seem to be in range of it.

If you have selected an ILS runway in the FMC, in the upper left of the PFD you will see the frequency of the ILS, heading and DME. When you are in range of the ILS signal the frequency will change to a 3 or 4 letter identifier of the ILS. I believe that prior to that the LOC button will not operate. After you see the identifier the LOC can be pressed.