TRIP WIND

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Sheesh - I have had the aircraft since release and I only now  start looking into the VERT REV WIND pages?! :blink:

 

There is a line at 2R that I seem unable to enter any data into. Is there a specific time I'm, supposed to enter data here? e.g. before engine start? I'm in cruise, and trying to enter anything results in NOT ALLOWED.

 

I entered some wind data for the FROM waypoint, and it still reads 0. Is this even implemented? I can't find mention of it in the manual, either.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[PHXMD-11 86]

 

 

here is a line at 2R that I seem unable to enter any data into. Is there a specific time I'm, supposed to enter data here? e.g. before engine start? I'm in cruise, and trying to enter anything results in NOT ALLOWED.

 

Click the right LSK next to a waypoint after the T/C. Go to VERT REF page 2/2. Enter the ALT/DIR/SPD of the wind. You can enter up to 4 altitudes per cruise waypoint.

 

As for a time that you can do that, I'm not sure.

 

 

 

Sheesh - I have had the aircraft since release and I only now start looking into the VERT REV WIND pages?!

 

Believe it or not, I don't think the wind page is even in the systems manual.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Very strange... I'm unable to program it, and when I enter winds as you describe, it disappears.

 

Entering winds on CLIMB FORECAST page doesn't do anything either. Unfinished feature????

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

FOUND IT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

INIT Page 1, LSK6L. Enter average cruise temp and wind component here!! It will populate the TRIP WIND line for all waypoints, and wind data will read HEAD or TAIL/average speed by each waypoint.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[pcubine 143]

FOUND IT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

INIT Page 1, LSK6L. Enter average cruise temp and wind component here!! It will populate the TRIP WIND line for all waypoints, and wind data will read HEAD or TAIL/average speed by each waypoint.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

 

 Robin

This is from a post I made several years ago about using average wind on the F PLN INIT page 1 of 3. An average wind can be misleading when trying to calculate ETA, step climbs, fuel burn, etc. The wind direction and speed need to be entered for each waypoint of the route.

 

“ For an example I will use a flight from EDDF to KLAX. I can print a report from Active Sky X that will show me the wind direction and speed for each waypoint of the route with the exception of those in SIDS or STARS which would be accounted for in the climb and descent forecast. This report also shows an average wind direction and speed for the entire flight plan. I can calculate a HDW or TLW using this with the track of the flight. The only problem with using an average is the average is not weighted for the length of the legs between waypoints. To get out of or into Europe, the North Sea, and across the top of Great Britain requires an incredible number of waypoints. Then you cross the Atlantic and Canada with very few waypoints with great distances between them, Europe with all of its waypoints will unduly influence the averages.”

 

Earlier this year I set up two flights from KJFK to KLAX. One using an average wind and one using wind/direction by waypoint. There was a difference of 45 minutes in ETA on a 5.5 hour flight with the second flight using wind/direction by waypoint being faster by 45 minutes. Why? There was a very strong headwind for the first 9 waypoints out of KJFK which unduly influenced the average. They accounted for 300 miles out of a 2000 mile flight or 15% but were 9 of 25 waypoints or 36% . So the average was much higher than the flight would actually encounter over the whole 2000 miles.

 

Climb forecast and Descent forecast work but it is not obvious to the naked eye because they really don’t account for much of the flight and therefore seldom influence the ETA. You pretty much have to take on faith.

 

So the question becomes how do you enter wind/direction by waypoint. It’s not easy especially if step climbs are involved. One thing to remember is the MD-11 FMS will propagate winds forward and backward. Once the climb forecast has been completed and inserted you are good to the T/C.

 

I am going to need to complete the rest of this post tomorrow because I can’t call up the MD-11. I am doing a flight in the NGX right now and I need to get the page names involved from the actual CDU.

 

Michael Cubine

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Heh - I don't get too worked up about the winds. It is was more that I wanted to enter route average winds to get a better fuel prediction than anything.

 

I only count headwinds, too, in order to end up on the "right side" with my fuel plan.

 

I'd still be interested in reading your post though!

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[pcubine 143]

Just testing these two files to see if they show up in the forum.

 

Michael Cubine

[3-2-1-Now 126]

I see them.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[mburkhard 23]

Robin,

just so that you know, wind input for individual cruise waypoints should work just fine, it is not something that is "not finished". Also it doesn't matter whether you put the wind into the FMC on ground or on climbout.

 

Maybe post again your exact steps trying to enter individual wind and temperature.

 

Cheers,

Markus

[pcubine 143]

Heh - I don't get too worked up about the winds. It is was more that I wanted to enter route average winds to get a better fuel prediction than anything.

 

I only count headwinds, too, in order to end up on the "right side" with my fuel plan.

 

I'd still be interested in reading your post though!

 

Best regards,

Robin.

Robin

I have attached two files that I used for the EDDF-KLAX flight. The files are from Active Sky Evolution and are the Navigation Log and Coded Route Weather. I am using AS 2012 for the flight but they are essentially the same.

 

Climb Forecast

To enter information press PERF button. In the lower right corner you will see climb forecast. Press right LS5. The Climb Forecast page comes up. You are presented with three blank lines for altitude/direction/speed of wind. Below that is a line for ground wind at EDDF and to the right a space for OAT in C at EDDF. I used the EDDF winds for 6000 and 18000 and BIBTI for 24000. The winds for 24000 would be entered on the scratchpad as 240/86/10 and left line selected to the top blank line. 18000 would be left selected to the middle as 180/88/14. And then 6000 on the last line as 6000/110/7. EDDF ground wind would be entered as 60/4 and the temperature as 12 with the wind being left line selected and the temperature being right line selected. Click on the left LS5 beside INSERT. The CLIMB FORECAST is done and this can be verified by pressing the F-PLN key, pressing the PAGE key and reviewing the winds by waypoint by pressing the up arrow key (or whatever it’s called). You should see winds until you reach T/C where the winds will become HD WD 000.

 

Cruise Forecast

The legs from LARAS to TINDI are not very long so I am going to use an average for those six waypoints and now I have forgotten what it was and the MD-11 has gone past the waypoints. Say they were 235/30. This is where the forward and backward propagation comes into effect. If you entered 235/30 at LARAS and up arrowed thru the flight plan you would see winds of 235/30 all the way to KLAX. However we are only entering info thru TINDI. So we will up arrow to ROLUM and enter 227/33. Now ROLUM propagates backwards to the last entry made which was LARAS. All the waypoints become 227/33 not the 235/30 we thought we had.The solution is to make the entry at TINDI. It will then propagate back thru LARAS with 235/30 at all waypoints between LARAS and TINDI. Now make the entry for ROLUM and it will only go forward. Since this is so confusing I usually don’t do this but these legs are really short. The idea in making these entries is not to think about what should and what should not be entered. Just do step one, two, three, and so on for every entry. Get confused, blown an entry and half of what you have done is wiped out. So, how do you make an entry for a waypoint? Let’s do TINDI and ROLUM for starters. Press F-PLN key, press PAGE key, press the right LSK for the waypoint your want to make the wind entry for and a page called VERT REV at TINDI will appear with four lines in which to make the entry. We want to enter the average from LARAS thru TINDI. We also need to enter the altitude. Our initial cruise is at FL300. In the scratchpad enter 300/235/30 and left LSK2. Then press the left LSK beside INSERT. Then press the right LSK beside NEXT and a VERT REV at ROLUM page will appear. You can verify that the TINDI entry was done correction by looking at the left LSK and seeing FL300/235/30. If the wind direction/speed is not smaller than the FL300 something is messed up with the TINDI entry. Try it again. If it looks ok enter 300/237/33 in the scratchpad, left LSK it over the TINDI entry, insert and press right LSK beside NEXT. The page for GIVEM should come up. Enter 300/227/57. Left LSK over the ROLUM entry, inset, next and the page for NEXUS comes up. Continue on thru RUGID. Now we are going to do a step climb to FL320 which is between FL300 and FL340. for the next six waypoints. These winds are going to require an average between FL300 and FL340 since there is no FL320 in the Coded Route Weather report. The first waypoint at FL320 is NINEX. When the VERT REV page comes up you will see FL300/230/36 which is the RUGID entry. For NINEX enter 320/245/46 in the scratchpad, left LSK to the line below the RUGID entry. The entry will automatically go to the first line and the RUGID entry will appear below it on the next line. Don’t select it to the top line. Let it go there automatically. If you select it to the top line all the waypoints at FL300 will have NINEX’s winds. Once NINEX’s winds have gone to the top line you can INSET it press NEXT. The next waypoint is BALIX. Enter 320/247/47 in the scratchpad. Now it can be selected to the top line, inserted, and NEXT press. Continue on like this thru 6350N after which there is a step climb to FL340. 6360N is the first waypoint at FL340. Like the entry for the first waypoint at FL320 we want to left LSK the 340/266/113 from the scratchpad to the line below FL320 and FL300 and let it automatically go to the top line. After it is on the top line, INSERT it, press NEXT and you should see VERT REV at 6270N on the next page. Enter 340/227/78 in the scratchpad and left LSK it to the top line. INSERT it and press NEXT. Before 5499N we will do a step climb to FL360 and stay at that level for the remainder of the flight until T/D. Now you can stop using the Coded Route Weather and start using the Navigation Log since the direction/speed for each waypoint is at FL360 with the exception of the departure and arrival airports which is ground level. On the VERT REV at 5499N page enter 360/287/66 in the scratchpad and left LSK it to the only line left without data – the bottom line. Let the CDU rearrange it to the top, INSERT it and press NEXT for VLN and so forth until you reach OVETO Enter, left LSK , insert and press NEXT. There is no NEXT to press only PREV. This is because this waypoint is the last one at FL360. Between this waypoint and the next one which is HEC the descent is going to start.

 

Descent Forecast

Now the descent forecast page is reached by pressing the PERF key, pressing the PAGE key once, and the right LSK beside descent forecast which will bring up the descent forecast page which was completed on the ground at EDDF. When we get about 90 to 100 miles from T/D I will run ASE again. However this time the flight plan will include the STAR. For FL300 I will use the 30000 ft winds at DPYSO. For 18000 I will use winds at GRAMM and KLAX for 6000 ft. The data on the DESCENT FORECAST page can be over written with the updated data and inserted.

 

This whole exercise is real donkey work but someone has to do it. There is no ACARS or FO. Right now we are several hundred mile from T/D and we will see what the ETA is at KLAX. I keep records of the ETA during flight. However I only start the record keeping from T/C to T/D. The climb and descent have too many outside variables in particular ATC to determine how accurate the ETA is. At T/C the ETA was 2146Z at 1013Z 18 minutes into the flight. 20 miles from T/D the ETA is2157Z at 2129Z. 11 minutes off on a 12 hr. 4 minute flight. The touchdown was at 2200Z.

 

If you have any questions don’t hesitate to ask.

 

Michael Cubine

[3-2-1-Now 126]

just so that you know, wind input for individual cruise waypoints should work just fine, it is not something that is "not finished". Also it doesn't matter whether you put the wind into the FMC on ground or on climbout.

 

Maybe post again your exact steps trying to enter individual wind and temperature.

Hi Markus,

 

It was just something I wondered, and not an accusation. I was expecting to be able to edit it right there in the VERT REV wind page, which is what made me think it wasn't complete when it said NOT ALLOWED.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Hi Michael,

 

I've had a chance to sit and properly read your notes. Thanks for explaining the technique of entering different winds for different waypoints. Makes sense.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[Dan F 6]

Thanks all.

 

I flew GEC8230 last night from KORD to KLAX and had the EXACT SAME questions.  I neglected to enter winds and when I entered a value in the INIT page I was given a 44kt TL wind which was actually the exact opposite of what I was experiencing.  

 

Thanks for clearing this up, I guess my turns just got longer with this bird especially considering I have PFPX now and it gives me this info to use.

[pcubine 143]

 

 

I  became obsessed with the winds aloft when I use to fly the CS 752, 752F,  762, and 763. The wind page entries by waypoint had no effect on time of T/D or ETA.  You could enter a wind of 225/199 at the first waypoint on a KJFK-KDFW fight and it should then propagate thru the remaining  waypoints or you could enter the forecasted winds at each waypoint and execute it. The ETA did not change. The whole wind deal was obviously eye candy in the CDU. I raised so much hell in their 752 Forum about that when I got the MD-11 I felt obligated to enter winds for each waypoint and now it has become OCD thing in the 744, NGX, 777. Thank God the winds can be imported in the 777. I would hate to spend a couple of hours entering winds for up to 125+ waypoints.

 

Michael Cubine

[pcubine 143]

Did a KOAK-RJAA flight today starting about 0500Z. Flight time was 11 hours and 16 minutes. I used average temperature -40C and headwind component of 50 kts as calculated by AS2012. The ETA at RJAA was 0854Z at top of climb and 0926Z just before T/D a difference of 32 minutes. Not good.

 

Michael Cubine