Slow Climb

[anthony99 7]

Hahaha. Yes your correct real life comes first! Thanks

[anthony99 7]

Ok i managed to sneak on my computer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wolke85 150]

Hi Anthony!

Just some very early idea:

But Your fuel on board says 6.3 (6300kg i assume as You fly in Australia) and Your reserve fuel (RSV) says 5.0.

I am not sure how Your flightroute to YBBN looks like exactly - but there is something wrong with Your fuel/RSV numbers as You'd only have 1.3 (1300 kg) before continuing flying with RSV fuel.

I may be mistaken, but i think there is something wrong with these numbers.

Now:

Do You use a fuelplanning tool such as (only two examples) PFPX (superb - very acurate, very detailed, but payware) or Fuelplanner (rather basic, but definitely fully okay to gain some idea of the amount of fuel needed - and - freeware)

http://fuelplanner.com/

for instance?

 

Please also feel free to check out the explanations regarding fuel planning in the NGX Tutorial #2,  P.35-45 - You may have done so already, but things get forgotten or overseen, so it might help to recheck some basics from time time.

 

When Your time allows it, please take some shots again when You are already in flight - and - when You are encountering another "slow climb situation" - ecause things certainly look different on the ground then in the air.

[anthony99 7]

Hello Christoph!

 

Thank you for the helpful reply. Yes I am using www,fuelplanner.com. Ok I will have a look at the NGX tutorial. Also during flight I experience the aircraft looses and gains speed. Which I think its an error with REX 2? During the flight I didn't experience the slow climb.The aircraft was climbing at 1200FPM (pass 30 000 FT. Is that correct?)  Maybe the problem was the RSV fuel? It only took me 15-20Mins to get to Fl390. Thanks

[wolke85 150]

 

 

Also during flight I experience the aircraft looses and gains speed. Which I think its an error with REX 2? During the flight I didn't experience the slow climb.The aircraft was climbing at 1200FPM (pass 30 000 FT. Is that correct?)

 

Hi Anthony!

It does not necessarily have to do with REX2 - sure:

Turbulences for instance can sometimes be an issue, but:

If REX2 (or any other dedicated weather engine such as AS or OPUS or FSGRW) is set up properly, turbulences and things like sudden changes in winddirection- or speeds should not be that much of a problem - sure:

They may still happen occassionally, but should not go that far to become a "showstopper" so to speak - but yes:

If the AC gets hit by a sudden change in winddirection or windspeeds, thrust needs either to be reduced or added to maintain speed - this is usually done by the Autothrottle - and that's the point - because if Autothrottle is turned on, a sudden change of speed due to sudden changes in windspeeds- or directions should only last as long until it is all balanced again in regards to adding or reducing thrust.

Sure:

Proper weatherdepiction can be tricky in FSX - and as far as i remember some parts of Australia or New Zealand for instance are not really well covered in regards to METARS or so (but i do not have any detaild info at hand here, so let's leave that aside for now))

Anyways:

If REX is set up properly and so injecting weather in a reliable way, it should - most likely - not be the main concern/reason for Your described situation of loosing speed.

 

The aircraft was climbing at 1200FPM (pass 30 000 FT. Is that correct?)

Sure that can be possible:

It - very basically talking - depends on weights and speed - and (again very basically talking):

The higher the speed while climbing, the lower the rate of climb - the lower the speed, the higher the rate of climb.

By the way:

Do You use VNAV or V/S mode while climbing?

Just asking in case: Because - as also outlined above:

For climb only use either VNAV or LVL CH mode but not V/S!

 

 

 

Ok I will have a look at the NGX tutorial

 

Really do so - it is absolutely mandatory!

Only when Your time (real-life) allows it though!!

Sure:

It may sometimes be a bit hard to understand it all, but it is really necessary and in the end it is a very rewarding process - at least for a dedicated flightsimmer and virtual NGX pilot :wink:

Dig through it - step by step.

Maybe also check out various tutorialvideos on the web - some of them are really very informative, help- and useful!

 

I also consider browsing through the web and searching for the "Tom Risager NGX Tutorial" to be a great idea - it's a free tutorial and was also mentioned here on AVSIM a while back by now - but it's still up-to date and ... it's a real great resource for the NGX!

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/350626-737-ngx-tutorial-by-tom-risager/

[anthony99 7]

Hello!

 

Woah ok now I understand. Thank you for the explanation! I am using VNAV. Ok I've been through the tutorial and I understand it. When I come home from school i'll try a flight from YSSY-YBBN and Ill tell you how it goes. Thank you for the help!

[Spin737 102]

Do You use VNAV or V/S mode while climbing?

Just asking in case: Because - as also outlined above:

For climb only use either VNAV or LVL CH mode but not V/S!]

You can use V/S, just be judicious.

[anthony99 7]

Hello Christoph

 

I did a flight and climb was a success. I think the issue was RSV Fuel. Thank you very much for your help ! Thank you

[wolke85 150]

You can use V/S, just be judicious.

Indeed!

So better staying in VNAV or LVLCH while climbing.

B)

 

Hello Christoph

 

I did a flight and climb was a success. I think the issue was RSV Fuel. Thank you very much for your help ! Thank you

 

Great to read that Anthony!

Now enjoy flying and further reading the tutorials and getting continuously more and more familiar with this great plane over the time!

Welcome on board the NGX!

:smile:

[anthony99 7]

Once again thank you very much!

[James Bennett 52]

You can use V/S, just be judicious.

 

Not a good idea. You are needlessly taking your attention away from other aspects of the flight to monitor something the aircraft could do for you in a different mode.

 

There is no reason to use V/S HOLD for climb. It's inefficient with regards to fuel and time, it's more dangerous than LVLCHG or VNAV as there is no link between thrust/speed/climb rate and it's plain unnecessary.

[Spin737 102]

Indeed!

So better staying in VNAV or LVLCH while climbing.

B)

 

 

Not a good idea. You are needlessly taking your attention away from other aspects of the flight to monitor something the aircraft could do for you in a different mode.

 

There is no reason to use V/S HOLD for climb. It's inefficient with regards to fuel and time, it's more dangerous than LVLCHG or VNAV as there is no link between thrust/speed/climb rate and it's plain unnecessary.

 

There are good reasons to use V/S. Many simmers might not be aware of them or affected by them.

 

For long climbs, VNAV and LVL CHG are great. But....

 

For a climb of 2000' or less, the 737 can pitch up and develop a high rate of climb (ROC) in those modes. This can cause an uncomfortable nose-over on a short climb.

 

In some turbulence, the nose can wander. Some climbs at high altitude can cause another uncomfortable pitching, so a judicious V/S can smooth out these oscillations.

 

I used this yesterday: I was cleared to climb to 9000' and to look for crossing traffic at 10,000'. If I climb in VNAV or LVL CHG, I will possibly cause a TCAS alert. If I use a smaller ROC via V/S, I won't set off the TCAS.

 

So, no, don't go from TOGA to V/S to climb to cruise. But it's judicious use is helpful in real-world situations.

[richardnobes14 13]

I had loaded 6200KG of fuel

 

Try somewhere between 3990 and 4500 kgs of fuel as the air distance between YSSY and YBBN is only about 350nm. And really? 5000kg reserve? The "normal" alternate for YBBN is YBCG and sometimes YSSY only 50nm and 350nm respectively away. 5000kg of fuel assumes that your planned alternate is something like YPAD or NZAA. No wonder you're struggling to climb with figures like that

[wolke85 150]

Not a good idea. You are needlessly taking your attention away from other aspects of the flight to monitor something the aircraft could do for you in a different mode.

 

There is no reason to use V/S HOLD for climb. It's inefficient with regards to fuel and time, it's more dangerous than LVLCHG or VNAV as there is no link between thrust/speed/climb rate and it's plain unnecessary.

 +1

 

Try somewhere between 3990 and 4500 kgs of fuel as the air distance between YSSY and YBBN is only about 350nm. And really? 5000kg reserve? The "normal" alternate for YBBN is YBCG and sometimes YSSY only 50nm and 350nm respectively away. 5000kg of fuel assumes that your planned alternate is something like YPAD or NZAA. No wonder you're struggling to climb with figures like that

Just mentioning in case:

The "situation" around the fuelnumbers is already noted and has been discussed a few posts above here

:wink:

 

 

I used this yesterday: I was cleared to climb to 9000' and to look for crossing traffic at 10,000'. If I climb in VNAV or LVL CHG, I will possibly cause a TCAS alert. If I use a smaller ROC via V/S, I won't set off the TCAS.

...

So, no, don't go from TOGA to V/S to climb to cruise. But it's judicious use is helpful in real-world situations.

 

If ATC vectores a flight into a  [...] possibly [...] TCAS alert on climb, then i think there is something wrong with ATC!

But let's please keep in mind that FSX ATC is not very reliable at all (and even most of the 3rd party ATC programs available also have some iissues mainly due to FSX limitations)!

 

If You fly online however, that's sure something completely different - to the better!

 

And although i am no real world pilot i still dare saying:

It is without any doubt most mandatory to react on a TCAS alert, to plan ahead and always having situational awareness in mind - but (!) - it is also better to not start lining out "possible" TCAS alerts, mainly or even solely assumed by the (virtual) pilot's mind but/and without further "objective" proof - and so react to them solely by personal judgement and assumptions - especially not while in climb in a busy airspace!

Only my two cents here though.

And if either AI or ATC (or both) behave weired in FSX, which can be the case, it might even be worth considering to turn them both off completely so to speak and focus mainly on practicing procedures and flying, rather than a strangly flying AI or misguiding ATC.

 

A higher rate of climb by the way can also be quickly achieved by undertaking a "temporary speedintervention" (SPD INTV) by just lowering speed manually on the MCP speed (IAS/MACH window) - this will offer a higher rate of climb almost right away - in VNAV and LVLCH alike - but(!) - having stall/speed prodection still fully available.

Not a very elegant solution, but still more reliable i think than getting into V/S in climb and risking a potential overspeed or - more likely here - close to stall "situation" then.

But sure:

It's still a home sim and we can try out/do whatever we want - nothing wrong with that.

And i am no real world pilot either and may be wrong too and stand corrected anytime.

 

By judging from all the many reliable tutorials/manuals and interesting discussions around that matter i am still pretty sure though that using V/S in climb in the NGX is not advocated as common - or possible - practice in the real world.

Other than that i think we are now getting a bit off topic, which was primarily about "slow climb" and not about possible TCAS alerts.

But sure and then again:

Absolutely nothing wrong in having a good conversation from time to time!

:wink:

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

If ATC vectores a flight into a [...] possibly [...] TCAS alert on climb, then i think there is something wrong with ATC!

 

Except that it's done all the time, particularly in the terminal environment.  That's the first part.  The second part is that a plane's TCAS has to feel "threatened" before it sends off an RA.  It may set off a TA, but it's simply informational.

 

Proper control would dictate several things:

1. 1000' separation is sufficient in just about all environments (yes, there are exceptions).
2. ATC has informed the climbing crew of the reason for the climb restriction: "Climb and maintain 9000 - crossing traffic at 10,000."
3. Crew A was informed of Crew B's location and vice versa.

RAs will only be set off if TCAS determines that there's a possibility for a collision.  A high rate of climb, which is often something that comes from using VNAV, could certainly fool TCAS into triggering an RA where one isn't necessary.  As such, it fits that Matt is suggesting V/S in that situation.

 

It's a well known issue in the community:

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2019.pdf

 

"In order to reduce the number of RAs caused by high vertical rates before level-off, ICAO in November 2008 published a provision recommending the reduction of vertical rates to 1500 ft/min or less in the last 1000 feet before level-off, when the pilot is made aware of another aircraft at or approaching an adjacent flight level, unless instructed by ATC to maintain a certain vertical rate."