So...... Can I fly a glider at night?

[HiFlyer 9,363]

There seems to be a bit of a grey area in answering this question, as I wasn't able to find an absolutely definitive response.

 

Anecdotal evidence seems to support that night flying gliders was once popular in Poland but I found no info on current practices.

 

Other evidence indicates that upward into the 1970's the practice was at least tolerated/loosely regulated in the UK, and apparently the US as well, leading to several accidents.

 

Current information however, indicates a grey area right now, especially with gliders that are also LSA's

 

Is there a definitive yes/no answer to this?

 

Rules of the Air Regs 2007, Statutory instrument 734 Rule 50

"At night a glider shall display either a steady red light of at least 5 candela showing in all directions or alternatively standard red, green & white aeroplane lights"

 

[mgh 89]

I believe night flying isn't possible without an appropriate rating or qualification in the UK.

[HiFlyer 9,363]

I believe night flying isn't possible without an appropriate rating or qualification in the UK.

 

It all seems so iffy: I can't even find any modern standards for lighting on such a craft. It appears pretty Laissez-faire. It appears like its all do-it-yourself, you're-on-your-own, try-not-to-die.

[mgh 89]

I think you'll find everything for the UK in:

 

1 The Air Navigation Order 2009 (SI 2009 No. 3015)
2 The Rules of the Air Regulations 2007 (SI 2007 No.734)
3 The Air Navigation (General) Regulations 2006 (SI 2006 No. 601)
4 The Air Navigation (Cosmic Radiation)(Keeping of Records) Regulations 2000 (SI 2000 No.1380)
5 Permanent Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) Regulations
6 The Civil Aviation Authority Regulations 1991 (SI 1991 No.1672)
7 The Air Navigation (Dangerous Goods) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009 No.1492)

 

If you can find it!

[HiFlyer 9,363]

If you can find it!

 

Hence the question.  I could not! For the UK, or the USA, or pretty much anywhere! 

[africanbriton 0]

It would not be practical. As gliders rely on lift, from thermals or wave lift or ridge lift- You would not be able to gain lift at night other than ridge lift as thermals and wave lift direct needs the sun. But hey, this is flight sim so no one is really stopping you, and if you're a real glider pilot you're on the wrong forum.

[mgh 89]

There isn't a UK Glider Pilot licence. The only requrement is be be over 16 years old.

 

On other other hand a glider is defined as;

 

‘Glider’ means:
(a) a non-power-driven, heavier-than-air aircraft, deriving its lift in flight chiefly from aerodynamic reactions on surfaces which remain fixed under given conditions of flight;
( B) a self-sustaining glider; and
© a self-propelled hang-glider;

 

So it is an aircraft and the same requirements apply - unless there are specific exceptions.

[HiFlyer 9,363]

It would not be practical. As gliders rely on lift, from thermals or wave lift or ridge lift- You would not be able to gain lift at night other than ridge lift as thermals and wave lift direct needs the sun. But hey, this is flight sim so no one is really stopping you, and if you're a real glider pilot you're on the wrong forum.

 

Before I even asked the question (and hopefully to avoid putting my foot in my mouth) I pretty much searched through a mountain of material on the web.

 

While not getting an answer, I did learn that gliders could indeed stay up at night. Apparently, the recognized world record is 56hrs, in an Arsenal Air 100 and there may be more, but because of numerous deaths in glider flight endurance attempts, the various record organizations stopped recognizing such activities for gliders. People still occasionally do it, apparently. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-12/14/content_12642607.htm

 

Hill lift and possibly Wave lift seems to have been popular in many of these attempts, which has led to pilots falling asleep and having a bad day.

 

Some info on lift and a quote: http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co.uk/lift.htm

 

If a wind blows against an obstruction such as a hill, some of it is forced up and over the top creating a band of rising air immediately in front of the hill. Provided the glider pilot keeps flying within this band of lift, he can stay up all day and all night (in theory) if he wishes.

 

 

That being said, regulations about lighting, or even legality seem few and far between.

 

I just can't seem to get a definitive answer, but there are anecdotes Everywhere.

 

A pointer I found was an advertisement for an LSA which perhaps supports MGH: http://www.phoenixairusa.com/LSA_Glider.html

 

PILOT RATING CONSIDERATIONS

The Phoenix is both a Light Sport Aircraft, and it is a glider.  Consequently, it can be flown by a private airplane rated pilot, a sport pilot, or a glider pilot.  How can that be?  Well, a private rated airplane pilot can utilize his sport privileges to fly light sport aircraft.  When this happens with a current medical certificate, the pilot has the same abilities as he always does in any GA aircraft.  That is, he can fly in any airspace, he can fly at night, and he can fly above 10,000'msl.  If he flies without a medical, then he is flying as a sport pilot, and must fly below 10,000' and only during the day.  The same applies of course to the pilot with a sport rating.  Nothing new so far, right?

[Great Ozzie 101]

It all seems so iffy: I can't even find any modern standards for lighting on such a craft.

 

 

Hi Devon,

 

In the U.S. there is §91.209 Aircraft lights.  And (afaik) one will need a PPL (for night privileges).  

 

In terms of practicality (for flying at night), a motorglider could fit the bill. One will need a logbook endorsement for the motorglider - §61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements ("Additional training required for operating a glider - Using self-launch procedures").

 

If carrying a passenger §61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command for nighttime currency will apply.

 

-Rob

 

Edit: I believe that for the motorglider, §91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements also applies.

[HiFlyer 9,363]

Hi Devon,

 

In the U.S. there is §91.209 Aircraft lights.  And (afaik) one will need a PPL (for night privileges).  

 

In terms of practicality (for flying at night), a motorglider could fit the bill. One will need a logbook endorsement for the motorglider - §61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements ("Additional training required for operating a glider - Using self-launch procedures").

 

If carrying a passenger §61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command for nighttime currency will apply.

 

-Rob

 

Edit: I believe that for the motorglider, §91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements also applies.

 

Thanks!  :smile:

 

After a day of searching for the answer, I guess I can with some confidence conclude that:

 

1) Yes, gliders can fly at night if you is crazy enough to do it, and and gather the right paperwork first, and.......

 

2) Get some dang' lights, if ya' do! 

[Flying Penguin 44]

As you say, it's a question of paperwork.

 

Our club (one of the biggest in the UK) tried to start night flying a few years back. Our CFI also came to the conclusion that there was nothing in regs stopping us. There had even been some work to figure out how the lights would fit.

 

So he phoned our insurers. From his telling of the conversation, they laughed. Then they realised he was serious...

 

The idea was quickly shelved.

[jcomm 5,948]

Here you go Devon...

 

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/344711-glider-night-flights.html

 

But yes, it happens sometimes, and in Africa quite often, as the guy who sometimes shares the glider with me tells me :-)

 

Also here some "bureaucratic" thread...

 

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/rules-regulations-flight-safety-better-pilots/6072-glider-rating-night-vfr.html

 

and here - very interesting read...

 

http://www.glidingcaboolture.org.au/gq60/tgs_night_flying.htm

 

Sustained night / dawn / dusk flight can use not only orographic or gravitic (wave) sources, but also convergence between air masses due, for instance, to day / night sea breeze, frontal systems, thunderstorms...

[HiFlyer 9,363]

Here you go Devon...

 

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/344711-glider-night-flights.html

 

But yes, it happens sometimes, and in Africa quite often, as the guy who sometimes shares the glider with me tells me :-)

 

Also here some "bureaucratic" thread...

 

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/rules-regulations-flight-safety-better-pilots/6072-glider-rating-night-vfr.html

 

and here - very interesting read...

 

http://www.glidingcaboolture.org.au/gq60/tgs_night_flying.htm

 

Sustained night / dawn / dusk flight can use not only orographic or gravitic (wave) sources, but also convergence between air masses due, for instance, to day / night sea breeze, frontal systems, thunderstorms...

 

Thanx, Jcomm!  :smile:

 

EDIT: It seems to me that a lot of this happened years ago, and then was largely abandoned because of the danger. I wonder if it would be quite so dangerous with modern technology? GPS, night vision, low-weight low-energy, ultra bright led lighting that could make your glider a christmas tree. Ipads........

 

I wouldn't think there are very many insurmountable technical hurdles for safe® flying, except that nanny-insurance might try to strangle you to death just because it sounds scary. 

[jcomm 5,948]

Devon,

 

believe me, it is even more dangerous during daytime, with lot's of gliders evolving in nearby thermals, without nav lights ....  That's why most of us use Flarm systems.

 

The other problem with gliders is the weight of the equipment.

 

Then there are some huge problems with legislation and the legislators, specially in the ultra-bureaucratic Europe :-/

[HiFlyer 9,363]

Devon,

 

believe me, it is even more dangerous during daytime, with lot's of gliders evolving in nearby thermals, without nav lights ....  That's why most of us use Flarm systems.

 

The other problem with gliders is the weight of the equipment.

 

Then there are some huge problems with legislation and the legislators, specially in the ultra-bureaucratic Europe :-/

 

Well, legislatures always think that there should be just a few more regulations and laws for everything. Kind of justifies and validates their own existence.

 

Unless its something they do personally, or it benefits them somehow, in which case they are abruptly all for deregulation.............. 

 

All of the western countries seem to be evolving towards nanny-states. Sometimes I think its too bad the cold war is over, since at least it kept them more occupied with other things and out of peoples hair!