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Hi, my name is Paul and I just introduced myself in the newbies forum. I own FSX Gold and and FS Ultimate Americas. I decided to start with a relatively modest t16000m and I own a Corsair K65 RGB which is excellent for assigning different colours to different types of controls on a key-by-key basis. However already I am starting to crave more!!! While there is no way that I could afford anything from GoFlight, I was looking at a few lower end panels from Saitek on Amazon which are affordable to me at the moment. My dilemma is do I just buy the Saitek Pro Flight Switch Panel or should I add the Saitek Pro Flight TPM Panel as well. Realistically at the moment my budget is about €200 so that would have to be it. Ideally I'd like to hear that the Pro Flight Switch would be sufficient and work my way up from there.

 

I would also like to hear peoples opinions on pedals, and yokes and how much they add to the immersion? I know that's a lot of questions but if anyone could address even a couple it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance (He said optimistically!)

 

Paul

 

Ps. Please let me know if the use of brand names is allowed in here. Thanks.

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If it's just programmable switches you're after, the VRInsight T&T might also be an option within your price range. It's a very nice quality basic controller which doesnt need any special drivers and is very easy to set up.

 

Another option would be a combination of the Saitek switch and multi panels, which together would add up to about 200 bucks, and will cover pretty much all basic functions. And even though the switches are dedicated, through SPAD you can still reassign the functions and set them up to your taste, for every aircraft separately.

But what it comes down to, is which functions in the cockpit you'd like see on your controllers most.

 

About the yoke and pedals. In my opinion, if you're flying mostly aircraft that have yokes, a yoke controller will make flying a lot more realistic. If you're a fan of golden age aircraft, or fighters, which are mostly using sticks, a joystick would be my choice.

And pedals do make the whole experience a lot more realistic. Working with your feet is a big part of controlling aircraft and a twist function on a joystick does work (which you already wouldnt have when you decide to get a yoke), but it's so much different from working with hands and feet together... Or you could use the auto rudder function, but in my opinion, this takes so much of the realism out of flightsimming...

I'm using the Saitek Pro Flight yoke and rudder pedals, myself and I think it's a very nice value for money. The only thing I wasnt too happy about is the Saitek Throttle quadrant, as I had no less then 4 quadrants in a row that were defective, so I added the CH quadrant to my setup.

The CH yokes are also very nice for the price, but they're different in construction with the throttle quadrant mounted on top and I think this choice is a personal preference. If you want to build the yoke into a bigger hardware panel, like I have, the height of the housing of these yokes, as well as the throttle quadrant on top, is just not practical. But from what I hear, the quality of the CH yokes is a bit better than the Saitek yokes.

 

Use of brand names is no problem on Avsim, so dont worry. I think it would be quite a hassle to improvise pointing to either the CS 737-200, or the Milviz 737-200, without mentioning the brand name. I can see how this could be funny, but it's far from practical. :P


Cheers!

Maarten

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do I just buy the Saitek Pro Flight Switch Panel or should I add the Saitek Pro Flight TPM Panel as well

...I would also like to hear peoples opinions on pedals, and yokes and how much they add to the immersion?

 

Personally I would say don't bother with the Saitek switch panel. It's okay (although one of the two I bought stopped working) but there are two reasons I say this. First, it is very specific to a particular class of aircraft and you will find yourself (1) trying to find out how to reprogram it (SPAD, FSUIPC, LINDA) or, more likely, (2) just not using it. The other reason is really (2) again - you may find yourself just not using it anyway except for a few light switches. I built a whole Twin Otter cockpit and there are some panels I just don't use. So spend the money on what you will use every flight - TPM yes; yoke or joystick or pedals, yes; autopilot or GPS, yes; radios, yes - and so on.

 

While I'm on the subject, I have spent a lot of money on Saitek stuff and a lot of it's junk. It looks good and some of it even works okay (rudder pedals, Cessna trim wheel), but some of it doesn't (radio panel, "pro flight" yoke. I would recommend the VR Insight multi-panel as a general programmable panel - it is excellent quality and has a good collection of rotary controls, analogue sliders, toggle switches and buttons. It is, however, expensive!

 

As for yokes and pedals, it depends what you're asking. If you already have a joystick and it works well then adding a yoke will not make a world of difference. Most likely you will go backwards because you will buy a cheap yoke like the Saitek (junk) and it will be worse than your (likely cheaper) joystick for controlling the aircraft. I have reviewed the Saitek, CH Eclipse and Elite yokes in some depth on my YT channel - follow the link in my banner to find those reviews. Pedals, I think they add a lot mostly if you want to operate realistically in crosswinds. For the flying part you don't really need them unless you're flying gliders, although it is cool to be able to side-slip an aircraft aggressively (subject to flight model) to finesse an approach.

 

Hope some of that helps.


MarkH

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Core i7-7700K / 32Gb DDR4 / Gigabyte GTX1070 / 1080p x 3 x weird / Win7 64 Pro

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That's brilliant Mark, I had my suspicions that they would just be overpriced novelties.

 

You weren't wrong about VRinsight being pricey, saw on Amazon.com for $260. I'd need to do my research into that. Do you think it's well-built and rugged enough to risk a second hand buy? Also, is there an unofficial buy and sell thread on the site.

 

Well, Mark, you just saved me close to a €100. Is there any aircraft that has just blown you away with it's realism that I should treat myself to. I'd happily gift you a middle range plane if you like.. If not I'll get myself some new scenery add-ons.

 

Thank you so much,

 

Paul

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Everyone has their opinions. ^_^

 

I have a lot of various hardware, mostly Saitek, and I'd be happy to add my two cents.

 

Yokes vs. Joysticks:  I own the Saitek Pro flight Yoke, as well as a Saitek x55 Rhino.  Personally, I have a difficult time flying an aircraft with the 'wrong' controls.  If I'm flying a Cessna or my Q400, I need to have a yoke in front of me.  And then when I'm flying something like one of the many helicopters I own, or the Lancair Legacy, or the VRS Superbug (and on and on), then I need to have a stick.  It's a personal bias, to be sure, but I need to feel like I have the proper controls in front of me.

 

When using hardware throttle quadrants normally situated on your right, this becomes more of a thing, especially since almost every high end joystick is designed for your right hand only.  In those cases, a yoke is vastly preferable, since you can hold it comfortably in your left hand while operating the throttle.

 

However, it's a sad truth that a high quality yoke costs far more than a high quality joystick.  And yes, the Saitek yoke, as noted above, is not the best quality.  I'll replace it one day, and hopefully with something better.  The problem is, is that anything better costs far, far more money.

 

Saitek Switch Panel: I love mine and use it very frequently.  Either Spad or LINDA takes care of more complex assignments.  Even with larger aircraft, I still use the light switches and the gear lever.  Plastic everything, but high enough quality that I expect it to last a long time.  Personal choice, but I recommend it.

 

Saitek Trim Wheel:  I have mixed feelings on it.  Because it's not powered, it can play havoc used in conjunction with autopilots.  In fact, I only ever use mine with a very few aircraft, such as the A2A Cherokee.  I'd hesitate to recommend it.

 

Saitek TPM:  This is one of my favorite hardware items.  Very, very high quality.  In fact, it seems to be whole different class of quality compared to the other Saitek components.  Metal case, proper toggle switches, etc.  Also, I've given mine a ton of use, and I find the throttle (which is used the most) has stayed very clean and noise free, which cannot be said for the Saitek throttle quadrants.

 

Saitek Throttle Quadrant: One of these comes with the yoke, and I've since purchased another so as to operate twins.  Really just a basic entry level quadrant, nothing fancy, all plastic. The stand alone quadrants aren't that expensive, which is a good thing, because they do wear out.  The one that came with my yoke is still usable, but is starting to get noisy.  Recommended due to being inexpensive and allowing for more realistic simulation of operating an aircraft with a quadrant, but it's not going to last forever.

 

Anyway, hope that helps.

 

Edit:  I forgot about rudder pedals!

 

I use the Saitek Pro Flight Rudder Pedals.  I'd not hesitate to recommend them. I've put mine through years of abuse, and they still operate just fine.  A set of rudder pedals should be any simmers absolute first hardware purchase.  Adds a lot to realistic operation of any aircraft or helicopter.


Jim Stewart

Milviz Person.

 

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Is there any aircraft that has just blown you away with it's realism that I should treat myself to

 

That will depend on what kind of aircraft you like - many seem to go for airliners, of which I know nothing. For GA, A2A has the 'realism' crown although the only A2A plane I have is the Piper Cub. I don't recommend this plane simply because although it's beautifully done really isn't much practical use and it has no systems in so there isn't much to do! One of my favourites is the Realair Scout, which is a nice flyer and is well-equipped, although the Realair cockpits are noted for looking very clean and a little bit (dare I say it) 'cartooney'. I also think the scout (/Citabria/Decathlon) is practical for FSX bcause it has a low-profile (i.e. wide but not very tall) instrument panel so you can get a good view from the VC.

 

Another quirky aircraft I like is the PZL Wilga, which is beautifully done although you will find the instruments calibrated in metric and many of the captions are in Polish! For practical but easy to fly look at the Flight1 BN-2 Islander. This has an old-fashioned GPS but I have discovered recently that there's a patch over at OZx that adds a Garmin GNS430 to the VC and as a pop-up, which is fantastic (and you can also use the standard GPS pop-up if you want). And there's the Twin Otter Extended, of course, about which you will see a lot on my YT. I like this because a lot of systems are modelled and it's difficult to fly well.

 

Take these all with a pinch of salt - they are a few of my personal recommendations but there are many, many great aircraft out there!

When using hardware throttle quadrants normally situated on your right, this becomes more of a thing, especially since almost every high end joystick is designed for your right hand only

...

Saitek Trim Wheel:  I have mixed feelings on it.  Because it's not powered, it can play havoc used in conjunction with autopilots

 

I concur on the 'handedness' of most joysticks, as the trend seems to be towards fighter-jet-style controls. The CH Flightstick is the only non-handed joystick I am aware of (but I have not done exhaustive research!) That would be one argument for a yoke. Also the trim wheel - definitely a problem, but there are solutions. For my Twin Otter I hacked the Saitek wheel to get it to output pulses as well as the analogue output (it is actually built around an optical rotary encoder), so it works fine with the autopilot because it's now a relative-position device. Since then I also discovered there is a software way to do the same thing using FSUIPC, so no soldering required and won't void your warranty!


MarkH

gGzCVFp.jpg
Core i7-7700K / 32Gb DDR4 / Gigabyte GTX1070 / 1080p x 3 x weird / Win7 64 Pro

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Also the trim wheel - definitely a problem, but there are solutions. For my Twin Otter I hacked the Saitek wheel to get it to output pulses as well as the analogue output (it is actually built around an optical rotary encoder), so it works fine with the autopilot because it's now a relative-position device. Since then I also discovered there is a software way to do the same thing using FSUIPC, so no soldering required and won't void your warranty!

 

I had done that as well, but I found issues with the smoothness and fine control. When enabled as an axis, I find the Saitek trim wheel has such a large range that it becomes easy to really fine tune your trimming.  When used as switches, it loses a bit of it's charm!  The solution would be to motorize the wheel; using an Arduino, that's something I'm planning on. ^_^


Jim Stewart

Milviz Person.

 

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Yes I've heard of A2A, but I thought PMDG created some pretty impressive aircrafts - maybe they focus on airliners more. I'm really not playing at a level where I can appreciate the subtleties of individual aircraft and I've got practically got no realism settings on  :unsure: . But the feeling of landing that 737 in the tutorial is one of the biggest buzzes I've ever experienced gaming- I'd say simulating but I had too many realism settings switched off, I'll definitely check out some of A2A planes, especially the ones you mentioned. The Flight1 BN-2 Islander definitely sounds in my wheelhouse.

 

Sorry for bombarding you with questions but are there any companies that specialise in WW2 aircraft and scenarios or would I have to have a look at IL_Sturmovik: Cliffs Of Dover for that type of game. Have you played that since it was fully patched? Might be worth a couple of quid.

 

Anyway, thank you again Mark. You've just become my unofficial guru on this site:) Don't worry I'll follow you on YouTube for any more tips. Is it called MarkDH? Take care.

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PMDG...WW2 aircraft...

YouTube

 

Sorry yes, PMDG are also up there with the realism stuff (or so I hear - never had one because they are, as you say all airliners). There was talk of PMDG doing a retro prop-liner, which I did think I might take a look at when it appeared. I must check back on that one. WW2 stuff - A2A again, they do AccuSim versions of the Spitfire, P-51, P-40, P-47 and B-17 as well as a few non-Accusim older models (the Corsair looks nice). There are many, many more WW2 aircraft - for best info you could check out sim-outhouse.com.

 

You can find my YT channel just by clicking the link in my signature.


MarkH

gGzCVFp.jpg
Core i7-7700K / 32Gb DDR4 / Gigabyte GTX1070 / 1080p x 3 x weird / Win7 64 Pro

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any companies that specialise in WW2 aircraft

 

I know you posed this question to Mark, but since he had already recommended A2A to you, it's worth noting that A2A makes some of the best WWII aircraft simulations that exist, hands down. They simply feel 'alive' in ways that you wouldn't think the sim is capable of!!

 

However, scenarios are another thing.  Other than the ability to use period-specific add-on scenery (usually freeware), the simulation of WWII aircraft within FSX is largely confined to the flying part, not the shooting.  There are a few exceptions in the works, but nothing to point you towards at this time.


Jim Stewart

Milviz Person.

 

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You sir, are a legend! Thank you so much for all your patience and advice and I look forward to watching you videos. And thanks Jimmy for letting me know A2A making such a high standard of WWII aircraft.

 

What a great forum!

 

Thanks guys!


 

 


VRInsight T&T

Is that the same panel that Mark referred to Demious?

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Is that the same panel that Mark referred to Demious?

 

No, the T&T is a much simpler and cheaper type. It has no sliders or knobs, but only buttons and toggle switches.

 

This is the one I mean, it's just over 200 US dollar at FFS, but I've seen them cheaper, also:

http://www.flightsimstore.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&manufacturers_id=130&products_id=1685

 

I know it's more expensive than the Saitek panels, but the build quality is a lot better.


Cheers!

Maarten

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Also, since the talk is of switches, panels, and build quality:

 

These boards: http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=205 made by Leo Bodnar (there are other choices out there), plus some switches from your local (or online) electronic component shop, plus a home-made panel (as simple or realistic as you might want it to be) is going to be the cheapest route, plus the one that offers the most ability to customize for whatever your use is!

 

Not a ready made solution, but one that lends itself to very high quality and useful switch panels.


Jim Stewart

Milviz Person.

 

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Thanks a lot Demious, I think that could be in my price range.

 

I really like the look of the Bodnar solution. My only fear with attempt a build of the panel to place them inside. Electronis I can deal with, carpentry, not at all. But I could certainly find someone locally to take care of that end of the project. I love the flexibility and possibilities of these boards. Really given me a lot of food for thought... Thanks Jimmy.

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Hey Demious, all your talk about pedals has just made me more curious. What exactly are quadrants and what are they used for? Also would I need a desk that I could place them directly under as that's not an option for me unfortunately.

Thanks.

Also, Jimmy, thanks for Leo Bodnar idea, but upon further research I think they would be a level above my electronics expertise. I may try a couple of little switches though, could be fun.

Have you ever tried one of his panels, and I do realise I'm talking to some serious, hardcore simmers here. It's honestly quite humbling.

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